Q&A with Luiz Paulo and Southland Merchants
Transcript:
Adam Marley (00:00:01):
Hi everyone. Welcome back to another live Q&A. This time we're going to be speaking with Nadia and Andre from Southland Merchants, who are a Brazilian couple who import coffee, and they're based here in Adelaide, like we are. Which is really exciting, and quite handy sometimes. And Luiz Paulo, from... I'm going to pronounce this badly I'm sure, Fazenda Santuário Sul, which is the current limited release, that we have on at the moment, that's where that coffee comes from.
Adam Marley (00:00:31):
So we're just going to be talking about that coffee, Santuário Sul. And then we haven't had Southland Merchants on a live Q&A yet, which is a shame. So we'll be talking to Nadia and Andre about them, and how they started, why they started, and everything else. So Southland are here, I'm going to invite them to connect. Hold on, "Invite to Join." Here we go. Sorry, everyone has the bear with me, while I try and do this on my phone. And then... Cool. Hello.
Andre Moreira (00:01:09):
Hello.
Nadia Moreira (00:01:09):
Hello.
Adam Marley (00:01:12):
How are you guys?
Andre Moreira (00:01:13):
How are you feeling?
Adam Marley (00:01:16):
Yeah, not too bad. Yeah. Yeah. Just normal. Yeah. How have you guys been?
Nadia Moreira (00:01:21):
We've been good. Thank you.
Adam Marley (00:01:24):
It's been a while. It's been a while since we've caught up.
Andre Moreira (00:01:27):
I know.
Nadia Moreira (00:01:27):
That's true, first we have quarantine. And then new quarantine, and then...
Adam Marley (00:01:31):
Yeah, that's the world we live in these days, isn't it?
Andre Moreira (00:01:39):
Yes.
Nadia Moreira (00:01:39):
Yes, that's true. That's true. Should I text Luiz to go into your Instagram-
Adam Marley (00:01:48):
Yeah, I think it would be easier for me to add him, if he's already on Instagram, if he could go into the Live.
Nadia Moreira (00:01:55):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:01:55):
Then he'll pop up here, and I think it will be easier. I might be able to try this way. Sorry, I'm just trying to add him manually. No, that's not coming up. Yeah, once he joins, he should be able to send a request to join. So once he starts watching the video, he can send a request. And then it will pop up on my phone, and I can just hit, "Yes." But yeah...
Andre Moreira (00:02:23):
Awesome, so what's happening with you guys?
Adam Marley (00:02:26):
Oh yeah. I've been talking about our new roasting space. We're going to be demolishing our current roasting space. Which I don't know, if you guys have been around to. Yeah, you have. You have. You have, so that tiny little shed?
Andre Moreira (00:02:40):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:02:40):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's going, and we're building a proper roastery, finally.
Andre Moreira (00:02:47):
Awesome.
Adam Marley (00:02:47):
So that's exciting, but it's taking a while.
Andre Moreira (00:02:51):
Oh right, so this is on the block? Same block?
Adam Marley (00:02:56):
Same block. Yeah, same block.
Andre Moreira (00:02:58):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:02:58):
But basically taking up the whole block, with a warehouse. So instead of having 30 meters square to roast in, we're going to have 150 meters.
Andre Moreira (00:03:06):
Awesome.
Adam Marley (00:03:07):
So I can't wait, because we've had nowhere near enough space for a while.
Andre Moreira (00:03:11):
Oh, that's great. That's exciting. That's exciting.
Adam Marley (00:03:16):
Yeah, it's very exciting. It's taking a while. It's like I've been talking about it for ages, because... There we go, I've just invited Luiz. Yeah, it's taking a while to get all the approvals, and everything else. But it will be great, once it's done.
Adam Marley (00:03:28):
And we've commissioned a Loring roaster, as well. So we have a Loring roaster, a much bigger roaster as well, because our little 12 kilo is not really keeping up anymore. So hopefully a new space, new roaster by the end of the year. Hello.
Luiz Paulo (00:03:42):
Hey. Good morning.
Adam Marley (00:03:47):
Good morning. Is it morning for you? Or what time is it for you?
Luiz Paulo (00:03:49):
It's goodnight for me.
Adam Marley (00:03:49):
I'm sorry.
Nadia Moreira (00:03:49):
(Foreign language).
Luiz Paulo (00:03:57):
And I'm so sorry. I'm not late, because somebody sent me a wrong information.
Adam Marley (00:04:05):
Was that Nadia?
Andre Moreira (00:04:08):
It's working with this time difference, it's always tricky to... Ugh, my god.
Nadia Moreira (00:04:12):
Oh my god.
Luiz Paulo (00:04:14):
I was expecting 10:30.
Adam Marley (00:04:15):
Oh, sorry.
Nadia Moreira (00:04:15):
That's okay, we've just started.
Andre Moreira (00:04:21):
Yeah, you're not late.
Adam Marley (00:04:23):
No. No. Just started. And so you just got back from Boston, didn't you?
Luiz Paulo (00:04:28):
Yes, yesterday.
Adam Marley (00:04:29):
Yeah. Yeah. So how was that, let's open with that, how was that?
Luiz Paulo (00:04:33):
That was incredible.
Adam Marley (00:04:35):
Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:04:35):
A lot of people. I think the life is back.
Andre Moreira (00:04:38):
Ugh.
Nadia Moreira (00:04:38):
Oh-
Adam Marley (00:04:39):
Yeah, okay.
Andre Moreira (00:04:40):
That's what we want to hear.
Adam Marley (00:04:41):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Luiz Paulo (00:04:42):
Yeah, life is back.
Adam Marley (00:04:47):
Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:04:48):
It's time to celebrate.
Andre Moreira (00:04:48):
Oh good.
Nadia Moreira (00:04:53):
I hope-
Adam Marley (00:04:54):
Yeah, and then-
Nadia Moreira (00:04:54):
... September here.
Adam Marley (00:04:55):
What was that Nadia?
Nadia Moreira (00:04:56):
I hope to see you in September here.
Luiz Paulo (00:04:56):
Of course I will be there.
Adam Marley (00:04:56):
Oh for MICE, yeah. Yeah, that's exciting. That's exciting.
Andre Moreira (00:05:02):
Yeah, we're looking forward to it. Yeah, how did it feel, walking alongside other people, and attending to cuppings, how did all that all go?
Nadia Moreira (00:05:12):
Yeah, how was the cuppings there?
Luiz Paulo (00:05:14):
Normal life. Normal.
Andre Moreira (00:05:18):
Normal?
Luiz Paulo (00:05:18):
Normal.
Andre Moreira (00:05:21):
So-
Luiz Paulo (00:05:21):
Of course, they are asking for the COVID test, before the entrance. But once I'm in, no problem.
Andre Moreira (00:05:28):
Oh, okay.
Nadia Moreira (00:05:29):
Oh, that's amazing. Good to hear that.
Luiz Paulo (00:05:31):
Yeah, the life is back. The life is back. Time to sell coffee, and you can't imagine how we're happy.
Nadia Moreira (00:05:39):
That's it.
Andre Moreira (00:05:41):
That's great.
Adam Marley (00:05:42):
Yeah. I mean it's exciting as well, because I think one of the things that is so effective at pushing the whole industry, everyone in the industry forward, and helping people grow, is that in-person communication. Tasting coffee together, and talking about the coffee together. And connecting with each other.
Adam Marley (00:05:59):
Especially for roasters, and baristas, to be able to connect with the producer like yourself. Or an importer, you guys. It's not the same in email. You know, it's not the same in email and WhatsApp?
Luiz Paulo (00:06:12):
No. No.
Adam Marley (00:06:13):
It's much different, tasting the coffees together.
Andre Moreira (00:06:16):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:06:16):
Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:06:16):
No, I was telling to all my friends, how was the impact to have the life again. Because when the people was checking about the coffee, sending mail, or calling for us, the feeling was totally different. But when you're face to face, and you can explain about the coffee, you can tell everything, and what the people can expect about that coffee, it's much better.
Adam Marley (00:06:43):
Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:06:43):
It's life.
Andre Moreira (00:06:44):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:06:44):
Yeah.
Andre Moreira (00:06:46):
Because it changes the whole experience, doesn't it? Because the industry we're in, especially in the coffee environment, it's all about that whole experience. It's not only about the coffee, there's more to it than that, [crosstalk 00:07:04], we bring together, and that face to face context is super important. Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:07:11):
Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:07:12):
The feeling. The feeling talking about a specialty coffee, is different. Because we are not a trading commodity, we are not trading just on coffee-
Adam Marley (00:07:21):
Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:07:21):
We are trading passion, we are the job, who our producer, and our families doing at the farm. And it's very difficult, when you don't have time, or you have space to explain, how that coffee is a specialty.
Andre Moreira (00:07:37):
Yeah.
Nadia Moreira (00:07:37):
That's true.
Andre Moreira (00:07:37):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:07:37):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Luiz Paulo (00:07:38):
And face to face, you can tell, you can explain. And the people can feel your feeling, about how that moment is important.
Andre Moreira (00:07:47):
Yeah. No, that's cool-
Nadia Moreira (00:07:49):
... with you Adam, how are you going?
Adam Marley (00:07:53):
Yeah, good.
Nadia Moreira (00:07:56):
Sorry Nadia. Was that me, or Luiz?
Luiz Paulo (00:07:59):
No, it's for you.
Adam Marley (00:08:01):
Oh, for me. Yeah, good. Good. I'm always saying it's been busy, but busy is good. And I always open with I feel a bit bad saying it, because I know not everyone's been as lucky as we have in South Australia, COVID wise, and the effects on business. But our café accounts, our café customers are doing really well. And we're selling a lot of coffee for home use as well. We're busy.
Adam Marley (00:08:31):
We're basically like a 100% up, on where we were last year. But what that means, is that we're constantly scrambling, just to keep on top of everything. And so for instance, this special release, I wanted to release it. I wanted to get it out for our customers, a while ago. But we've just been so busy, that we haven't had time to get labels ready, and do the tasting notes. And do all those things.
Andre Moreira (00:08:51):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:08:51):
So I promised all of our customers that are watching this, I promise the special releases will be much more frequent. It's not because we can't find amazing-
Nadia Moreira (00:09:02):
[inaudible 00:09:02]-
Andre Moreira (00:09:02):
Yeah-
Nadia Moreira (00:09:03):
... so yeah.
Andre Moreira (00:09:04):
Yeah. And he can tell you a bit more-
Adam Marley (00:09:07):
Yeah.
Andre Moreira (00:09:09):
... his exotic varietals are growing. And he'll obviously tell you more about it. But we've got some amazing new lots as well, he just keeps delivering. It's incredible.
Adam Marley (00:09:21):
Well, that's exciting.
Andre Moreira (00:09:29):
Yeah.
Nadia Moreira (00:09:29):
This is the guy.
Andre Moreira (00:09:29):
No, I'm not the guy. I'm just learning with you, how to do a good market for my babies.
Nadia Moreira (00:09:32):
Oh.
Adam Marley (00:09:34):
We're all just learning. We're all always learning, that's for sure. So I mean, that's a great segue though. I know it's not just the Sudan Rume, but Luiz, on the farm you've got lots of different, if we say, "Exotic varietals," exotic for Brazil.
Andre Moreira (00:09:48):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:09:49):
What was the inspiration there? And what varietals do you have going on? And what kind of feedback are you getting on them, and everything else?
Luiz Paulo (00:09:59):
Yes. Just to explain a little bit, now we have 32 different varietals at our farm.
Adam Marley (00:10:02):
Whoa. 32?
Luiz Paulo (00:10:02):
Just the exotic ones. And I started the project 12 years ago, when my family helped me to open the doors, and open the mind, to do different things here in Brazil. Because normally when the people think about Brazilian coffee, we just expect one profile.
Adam Marley (00:10:21):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Luiz Paulo (00:10:22):
Sometimes chocolate, sometime fruity. But nobody's expecting coffee so exotic, from Brazil.
Adam Marley (00:10:30):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Luiz Paulo (00:10:32):
But it was unfair, to compare Brazil and another countries, using different varietals, and using different process. Obviously how Brazil can produce a different profile? We need to work with the same varietal, and the same process, and now we can say, "Okay example one, Rume Sudan produced in Brazil has one profile, totally different than one produced in Colombia."
Adam Marley (00:11:01):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Luiz Paulo (00:11:02):
Or one SL28 has this specific profile, compared to the SL coming from Kenya. Now we have comparatives, to check.
Adam Marley (00:11:12):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Luiz Paulo (00:11:13):
Because we are talking about the same process, and the same varietals. And these experiment is the best, to produce and plant more and more varietals. All the time, when I see around the world some varietal, who can build and improve our knowledge in terms of profiles in Brazil, I want to use and planting more here, to check if we can improve our profiles.
Adam Marley (00:11:42):
Yeah. Yeah, it does-
Luiz Paulo (00:11:43):
Example, in terms of Rume Sudan. In terms of Rume Sudan, when I saw Sasa competing, using Rume Sudan, my question was, "Why he is using Rume Sudan? Why he's using Rume Sudan, to compete against Geisha?" I know Sasa, he's a smart guy.
Adam Marley (00:12:02):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Luiz Paulo (00:12:04):
And when I tasted the coffee, I say, "Now I know. Now I know why he's using Rume Sudan," because it has a huge potential. And now we can cultivate the Rume Sudan, and compare it to Geisha. Some people will prefer the Rume Sudan, than the Geisha.
Andre Moreira (00:12:18):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:12:19):
Yeah. I think when we chose your Rume Sudan, I think we got a lot of samples from Southland at the time. And we picked a couple of other coffees. And we put other coffees from other importers from Columbia, and other places on the table, at the same time. We usually cup... And it was our favorite on the table. And it was against Geisha. There was two Geishas on the table. Blind, so we were completely blind. We didn't know what was what. And the Rume Sudan was our favorite on the table, it just stood out.
Adam Marley (00:12:50):
So this is a natural process, and one of the things I love about this particular lot, that we all did, when we were cupping at the roastery, was it's not just one thing. A lot of the time, with exotic varietals, or interesting processing, or even the Country, say Panama or whatever it is, a lot of coffees will have one key thing, one key flavor note, that dominates everything else.
Adam Marley (00:13:13):
What I love about this, is that it is complex. And you can taste I think, maybe we're kidding ourselves, I feel like we can taste all the different parts of the coffee, adding their own element. So the varietal adds an element, the processing adds an element. The farm adds an element. But it's not just one note. There's lots of things going on there. And that's why we loved it. And so many coffees I think-
Andre Moreira (00:13:37):
The point why-
Adam Marley (00:13:39):
Yes, please.
Andre Moreira (00:13:40):
The point why we love the Rume Sudan, we can feel many things in the coffee. And the profile is very clean.
Adam Marley (00:13:44):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andre Moreira (00:13:45):
You can identify the profile.
Adam Marley (00:13:47):
Exactly. Yeah. Exactly, yeah.
Andre Moreira (00:13:51):
Yeah. It's a very [inaudible 00:13:53] coffee, we've been noticing. And we've cupping the Sudan from Luiz for a few years now, probably two years. And the clarity of that coffee, it is amazing.
Adam Marley (00:14:07):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andre Moreira (00:14:08):
Like it's really impressive, what you can do, in terms of complexity, but not losing that baseline of clarity of flavors you know?
Adam Marley (00:14:18):
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Andre Moreira (00:14:22):
... here in Sydney.
Adam Marley (00:14:23):
Yeah.
Nadia Moreira (00:14:23):
All the results that we are having, has been good result on this. This year, we're going import Sudan more, it's already here. And we have a few Starmaya, you should try. It's a shame that you're not here, so we could talk about it.
Adam Marley (00:14:43):
Next week. We'll cover it next week. Yeah.
Nadia Moreira (00:14:46):
But yeah, it's beautiful to see the different type of Geisha. And we have the Starmaya. I absolutely love the Starmaya. We're going to do [inaudible 00:14:57], so I want to-
Adam Marley (00:14:58):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nadia Moreira (00:15:01):
But I think the work Luiz's farm for real is doing is amazing, but Luiz you should share with us a bit about the processing that you're doing too, because I know that you're doing a lot of different things.
Luiz Paulo (00:15:15):
Yeah. I think the most important point, what we are doing at our farm nowadays, is we have our natural yeasts. We have the yeast, we create at the farm. During four years, we are cultivating our yeast. And nowadays, I'm sure we are having a very nice result with this yeast. It's because it's not only one yeast, it's a blend between different kinds of yeasts, and different kinds of bacterias. This is the interest point.
Luiz Paulo (00:15:51):
When the lady who was helping us do analysis there, these came, and to check our blend, one important point who we saw in this blends... I don't know I can express, but it's a blends between two different bacterias. Is the external temperature was 32 degrees celsius. And the internal temperature, was 15 degrees celsius. And the question is how? How is possible one yeast has temperature lower, than the normal temperature?
Andre Moreira (00:16:34):
The ambient temperature?
Luiz Paulo (00:16:36):
Yes.
Andre Moreira (00:16:37):
Within the mass, was much cooler-
Luiz Paulo (00:16:40):
Yes, that's it. Because the sun, the yeast was exposed to the sun. And then the inside of the tank, the temperature, all the expectation was much more than 32 degrees celsius.
Andre Moreira (00:16:54):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:16:55):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Luiz Paulo (00:16:58):
And then normally, when we add traditional yeast in our fermentation, we put more speed in the fermentation. And then with this yeast, we are doing low fermentation. We can feel the coffee much more clean, we can feel the flavor. We can't show you the perfume process. When you cup some coffee, it's so fermented, you cup and say, "Okay, this is process." You're cupping process.
Adam Marley (00:17:30):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Luiz Paulo (00:17:31):
With our yeast, you say, "No, this is the best how I can have the coffee."
Andre Moreira (00:17:37):
And the yeast that Luiz is talking about, is the byproduct from previous fermentation, that he would be selected from different coffees, different results. Is that right Luiz?
Luiz Paulo (00:17:49):
Yes, and no.
Andre Moreira (00:17:49):
Yeah?
Luiz Paulo (00:17:50):
Yes. This yeast came from one specific place. And we are using this blend, for all the varietals. And then we are having the same result.
Andre Moreira (00:18:08):
Good. But-
Nadia Moreira (00:18:08):
And this is a good thing, because you start to have consistency in the coffee. Then you start to reproduce, the things that you want on each one?
Luiz Paulo (00:18:17):
Yes.
Andre Moreira (00:18:17):
But the thing is, you've been using the same blend, the same yeast. And you've been extracting that from the fermentation. And you keep it-
Luiz Paulo (00:18:28):
For four years.
Andre Moreira (00:18:30):
Is that how you're doing it?
Luiz Paulo (00:18:32):
Yes. Four years, we are using the same. Of course, we had more.
Andre Moreira (00:18:37):
Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:18:37):
But we were selecting, which one can get a better result for us?
Andre Moreira (00:18:41):
Yeah.
Nadia Moreira (00:18:41):
So probably, we saw the yeast when we went to your farm last time?
Andre Moreira (00:18:45):
Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:18:45):
You saw. You saw, was in the tank. You remember, when it was in all the tank.
Nadia Moreira (00:18:48):
Yeah, it was really nice. Really good. And I remember that you visit a lot of wineries Luiz, to take some-
Luiz Paulo (00:19:00):
Exactly. I went to Bolivia, I went to Argentina, to check how it was possible to improve our coffee process.
Nadia Moreira (00:19:09):
By knowing how they do the fermentation on the grapes, right?
Luiz Paulo (00:19:13):
I was looking for analogy. I was looking to think, so we can using, they were using for grapes. But nowadays, we can use it for coffees.
Nadia Moreira (00:19:26):
And it's so interesting Adam. You have to go with us one time, you.
Adam Marley (00:19:34):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Nadia Moreira (00:19:34):
Because it's so interesting, you go there, and you visit Luiz's farms. Santuário Sul is one of them, but they have another farms. But when you go to Santuário, it's wild like Africa. And I know that you have been in... Help me? In-
Andre Moreira (00:19:50):
Rwanda.
Nadia Moreira (00:19:51):
Rwanda.
Adam Marley (00:19:52):
Uganda, yeah.
Nadia Moreira (00:19:55):
Uganda.
Andre Moreira (00:19:55):
Uganda.
Adam Marley (00:19:55):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nadia Moreira (00:19:56):
And you go, and the farm is very wild like African place.
Adam Marley (00:20:00):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Nadia Moreira (00:20:01):
If you go to another farm, that's Brazilian farm way to do, it's completely different. And it's interesting, because Luiz give this freedom for the trees, to try to reproduce the original place that they used to grow. And they can see what he can do, but in natural environment-
Adam Marley (00:20:24):
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Nadia Moreira (00:20:25):
... since the tree onto the processing, which is such an amazing job.
Andre Moreira (00:20:28):
Yeah. And it's quite an amazing job, that he's doing in Brazil. And very valuable, not only for himself, but for the whole industry. Because it sets like a standard, a pretty high standard, by the way.
Adam Marley (00:20:43):
Yeah.
Andre Moreira (00:20:44):
Because it seems like what he's doing, doesn't come in the first year, right? So he's been trying to get to the point he's now, for the last I don't know, 10, 12 years?
Luiz Paulo (00:21:01):
25 years.
Andre Moreira (00:21:02):
25, yeah. But the different varietals he's growing, it's trial and error, to find what varietal can go right. Finding a varietal that's also commercially viable, in terms of yield.
Adam Marley (00:21:18):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andre Moreira (00:21:19):
Because Luiz will tell us a little bit more about the differences, between a traditional... Because when we say exotic varietal, it's just that it's not a traditional varietal that's been growing in Brazil for a long time. So if you compare these exotic varietals, with a normal Red Catuaí, or a Yellow Bourbon in Brazil, you notice straight away, there's a big difference in yield. And that's something that he's also working on. All right?
Andre Moreira (00:21:48):
Because he obviously wants that, to be at the same level of competence, with other more traditional varieties in Brazil. You can tell us a little bit more, about the challenges Luiz?
Luiz Paulo (00:22:02):
Yeah. I think the most important point we need to observe, when you talk about Brazilian varietals, we are saying we have one average, in terms of production, in terms of 30 bags, per hectare. And for example Geisha, our Geisha in Brazil, we have about 12 bags per hectare.
Adam Marley (00:22:24):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Luiz Paulo (00:22:25):
And sometimes when people say, "Why Geisha is so expensive?" We are not talk about only the bag, all the costs is including to produce one bag of Geisha. It's three times, four times more than the price we need to expend, to have a Bourbon Amarelo or a Yellow Bourbon. So for Rume Sudan, we have around 15 bags per hectare, comparing to the one Catuaí, for example we have 50 bags per hectare.
Adam Marley (00:22:54):
Wow.
Luiz Paulo (00:22:54):
With the same effort, we have three times more coffees in one Catuaí. But comparing the quality, it's impossible, one Catuaí has the same quality, to one Geisha. It's impossible.
Adam Marley (00:23:09):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Nadia Moreira (00:23:12):
Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:23:13):
The coffee structure, is totally different. If you check our coffee guide on here, it's nice if you can come to Brazil to visit us, you can see all the varietal, and how different is tree by tree.
Adam Marley (00:23:27):
Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:23:27):
Because we have 32 varietals, in the same place. And all these varietals receive the same water, the same fertilization, the same care. And why in the end, the quality is so different?
Nadia Moreira (00:23:42):
And the quantity?
Luiz Paulo (00:23:43):
And the quantity.
Adam Marley (00:23:43):
Yeah, in a million. Yeah. I think-
Luiz Paulo (00:23:46):
And now normally when I say, "Okay, just to explain how is coffee quality in the end?" In my opinion, 60% is varietal, and 40% is the environment. Say always, "I don't agree." "Okay, come and check in our place. We have 32 different coffees, where you can cup and analyze." We have coffees coming from 78 points, until 92 points. Why?
Adam Marley (00:24:14):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Luiz Paulo (00:24:17):
We have same care. The same process, the same place.
Nadia Moreira (00:24:21):
Same place, same processing, same, same, same. But the varietal change.
Andre Moreira (00:24:26):
Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:24:27):
Exactly.
Andre Moreira (00:24:27):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:24:29):
Yeah. It's one of those things, where I think a lot of people that are just getting into specialty coffee, the consumer, for most people it's going to be a natural Ethiopian or something like that. Right? And they have this moment when they go, "Oh, coffee's not just bitter, and roasty, and everything else." They go, "Coffee can have all these amazing flavors."
Adam Marley (00:24:46):
And they go down this journey, and I think it just makes it easier for a lot of people, a lot of consumers, to kind of package flavor combinations, from processing varietal farmed, into one neat little package. That tastes like natural Ethiopian. Or that tastes like a pulped natural from Brazil. It's like they have these ideas in their head, because it's just easier to get their head around it that way.
Adam Marley (00:25:10):
And now we're in this amazing moment, in specialty coffee, where all those things are being broken apart. And exactly, the things you're doing like that at Santuário Sul, where it's the same farm, it's the same care, it's the same inputs, and you can taste the difference that the varieties make.
Andre Moreira (00:25:29):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:25:29):
And the same thing, where people do the same varieties, but with different processing. One might be fermented for 20 hours. One might be fermented for 60 hours, whatever it might be. But you're only changing one variable. And more and more we're getting examples like that from farms, as roasters, and you can cup them side by side. And then at this point, I'm willing to abandon all preconceived ideas, of what a coffee should taste like, based on where it comes from.
Adam Marley (00:25:53):
You know? It's like so much of it is to do with variety, and processing, exactly. And then that specific micro terroir... And that's not a thing, but for that farm. You know when people say, "Oh, that taste like a Brazilian coffee." Or, "That tastes like an Ethiopian coffee." I'm kind of going, "Well no, it tastes like lots of different things, all combined in that location."
Adam Marley (00:26:15):
But if you had the ability to do so, you can take those things out, and mix and match, and play with them. And create something new and interesting, and complex. Like I wouldn't have been able to guess... I'm pointing at my cup, the Rume Sudan from you Luiz, I wouldn't have been able to guess blind what varietal that was, where it was from in the world, what the processing was exactly.
Adam Marley (00:26:39):
It's not obviously a natural. It's not over fermented, or anything like that. It's perfect, it could be a wash, with a longer fermentation. And that just makes it so fun. Because it breaks down, this preconceived notion consumers have, on what a coffee should be. And the thing I get so excited about with that is, that it means we're all in this new world, where none of us really know what we're doing. How fun is that? How exciting is that?
Luiz Paulo (00:27:05):
It means we're in a new world.
Adam Marley (00:27:09):
That's really exciting. So thank you, for... And also I should point out to people watching this, consumers at home. Luiz and other farmers that have done things like this, are taking big risks. It's like you're, by doing that, by experimenting like that, you can potentially create something new and fantastic.
Adam Marley (00:27:27):
But you could also use up land, where you don't produce I high cup quality coffee. And it was low yielding, low cup quality. You put a huge amount of inputs into it, and that was land where you could have planted something, Catuaí or Bourbon, and you didn't. So whenever producers do this, as consumers, as roasters, we get to enjoy really fun, interesting coffees. But we didn't take the risk there. The producers took the risks-
Nadia Moreira (00:27:51):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:27:52):
... to try and create something new. So I think you should be rewarded for that, absolutely, and congratulated.
Luiz Paulo (00:27:59):
Thanks a lot.
Nadia Moreira (00:28:00):
That is so true, I think even the Brazilian market... And I can tell about the Brazilian market, because we focus on that.
Adam Marley (00:28:07):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Nadia Moreira (00:28:08):
I can see on the last five years, that we're involved in the industry through Australia, in Australia, how the farmers there is willing to develop new processing, to play with another kind of varietals. And I think Luiz is one of the pioneers, and one of the biggest influence, to make this movement there. So on the end, all the Country's winning with this situation.
Andre Moreira (00:28:37):
Yeah.
Nadia Moreira (00:28:37):
It's amazing to see.
Andre Moreira (00:28:39):
Yeah. He's definitely someone, that people look up to, and what he's doing. Yeah, he takes part in an industry, it's very competitive. And if you're not creative, and if you don't take risks, you probably won't be rewarded. Yeah, so we really pay our respects. Because last time we were together, which has been what, two and a half years? Because last time I went to Brazil, he was in Dubai.
Luiz Paulo (00:29:09):
Uh-huh (affirmative). Uh-huh (affirmative).
Andre Moreira (00:29:11):
I missed him by a day.
Luiz Paulo (00:29:12):
Yes.
Nadia Moreira (00:29:13):
We're going to compensate this for next time-
Andre Moreira (00:29:17):
Yeah.
Nadia Moreira (00:29:17):
... coffee, and barbecue, and beer and everything together.
Andre Moreira (00:29:21):
Yeah. Yeah. But he told me about the failures. Right? And he can tell us a little bit, he's tried so many different processing methods, that's unbelievable. Like he lost a full truck of coffee, they were trying to ferment coffee with pineapple skin. Do you remember that? You know?
Luiz Paulo (00:29:49):
It was the beginning. I was in the beginning.
Nadia Moreira (00:29:50):
The story's good.
Andre Moreira (00:29:53):
Yeah, so it's crazy. And then he's left with this rubbish after, I mean this rotten skin, and full of bees. And how do you get rid of that? You know?
Luiz Paulo (00:30:04):
Don't remember. Don't remember.
Nadia Moreira (00:30:10):
But it's amazing, because take the risk, actually lose some money, but you made the journey, and now it's doing just beautifully.
Andre Moreira (00:30:18):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:30:20):
Yeah.
Andre Moreira (00:30:20):
Something really interesting I saw, was that stainless steel tank Luiz, that you're using for some of your fermentation. I don't know if you want to talk about that?
Luiz Paulo (00:30:35):
Okay. I don't have any problems, to explain everything about our coffee [crosstalk 00:30:38].
Andre Moreira (00:30:38):
Yeah. But tell us about that, because I had never seen that before? And it looks like more of a dairy industry tank, to store milk.
Nadia Moreira (00:30:49):
Yeah, it's really cool.
Andre Moreira (00:30:51):
Yeah. But tell us a few details about that tank, that you're using to ferment the coffee?
Nadia Moreira (00:30:58):
And the UV covers too.
Luiz Paulo (00:31:01):
First thing, let's talk about the tank. The tank was used for a milk industry. And the point who we observe, where we can use it for coffee, is we can manage the internal temperature, because they have a refrigerator system. And then the idea was make our fermentation, a longer fermentation. We were looking for a 120 hours, 150 hours. But what we saw in the beginning, when we were doing this kind of fermentation, we were losing quality, in terms of shelf life.
Luiz Paulo (00:31:42):
Okay, when you cup the coffee after the fermentation, it was good. But one month, two months later, the coffee lose all that profile. Because we are forcing the fermentation, in a higher temperature.
Andre Moreira (00:31:55):
It wasn't creating bonding connections, by bonding-
Luiz Paulo (00:32:01):
Yeah, we were pressing the fermentation, and then we were losing the same time, the quality.
Andre Moreira (00:32:05):
Yeah. Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:32:06):
But with the refrigerator tank, we were managing the temperature. And then doing the fermentation, with a lower temperature. In the end the result was much more clean. You can feel the coffee process.
Andre Moreira (00:32:25):
Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:32:26):
Because sometimes when you cup... And I rubbed the coffee. If you know, this is process. You're not cupping the coffee, you are cupping the process.
Adam Marley (00:32:32):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Luiz Paulo (00:32:33):
You can say, "This is pulped natural, this is natural, or this is anaerobic fermentation." Just by the cup.
Andre Moreira (00:32:41):
Yeah. Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:32:42):
But the idea was with this tank, "Okay, I want to do an aerobic fermentation, but 120 hours, 130 hours." Because we can improve the profile, with a longer fermentation.
Andre Moreira (00:32:59):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:33:00):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andre Moreira (00:33:04):
Without losing its characteristic, the coffee's characteristic.
Luiz Paulo (00:33:05):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Nadia Moreira (00:33:06):
And this is a great thing to tell, because one of the things of export, and especially from Brazil to Australia, is the time that the coffee stay on the whole time to arrive here. And we really observe the farmers that we work with, that the coffee have to keep the clarity, for longer. And to make this happen, it's so important to take care of the processes there.
Nadia Moreira (00:33:35):
And I think it's one of the things that's a factor, to make the processing to keep the coffee, and keep the quality. Not just have an amazing one on the first side, and then after that we don't find it.
Andre Moreira (00:33:52):
Yeah. It's a fade away kind of thing. Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:33:56):
Yeah. And-
Luiz Paulo (00:33:56):
I'll talk about the UV. The idea with the UV, we observe with one test did in Colombia, with a friend, using the UV, we can kill-
Andre Moreira (00:34:11):
One the rice beds. Right?
Luiz Paulo (00:34:13):
Yeah.
Andre Moreira (00:34:13):
Rice beds.
Luiz Paulo (00:34:15):
We can kill the bacterias. It's difficult to explain here, but when I can show you the picture, with one coffee dried in a normal patio, and comparing it to when coffee dried under the UV, the result is totally different. Totally different. So if you put the coffee in a microscope, you can see how the coffee is different.
Nadia Moreira (00:34:37):
Yeah. Just to explain to you Adam, they do a big warehouse, and they put a UV protection on the top. So if you go inside, the raised beds are there, and it's completely blue with that kind of protection. And the way that the beans absorb the sun, is-
Andre Moreira (00:34:59):
Yeah, you still get that warmth, to dry the coffee obviously. But there's no direct-
Nadia Moreira (00:35:04):
Heat.
Andre Moreira (00:35:05):
Yeah, sunlight. Is that right Luiz?
Luiz Paulo (00:35:09):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.
Andre Moreira (00:35:12):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:35:14):
Yeah, innovative. And that makes sense. I think there's some research that's coming out, recently, or semi recently, looking at coffees that fade quickly, or coffees that show age quickly. And we all assumed it was drying speed, and water activity, all those sort of things. And they obviously play a part, but now the new thing, or relatively new, that's coming out, is that a lot of the time, it's because of bacteria. It's because of bacteria, and yeast, and lots of foreign species.
Adam Marley (00:35:46):
If you look at a spontaneously fermented washed, or natural coffee under a microscope exactly, or you take a sample and put it in a Petri dish, then you're going to get 20, 30 different species of yeast and bacteria. And some of those like to, I think, the science says... I'm not a scientist. I think the science says that some of those bacteria like to metabolize some of the fatty acids that are in the coffee, and the oxidized fats, can lead to that woody flavor.
Adam Marley (00:36:15):
And they're still alive on coffee. Even after it's been dried to 11%, they're still there.
Andre Moreira (00:36:21):
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Adam Marley (00:36:21):
And so then, six months later when the coffee sack has been sitting there, and the bacteria's still alive, they've been very slowly, but none the less consistently oxidizing those fatty lipids. And you get that kind of woody flavor. So it makes sense if you're able to not necessarily sterilize, but you're limiting the amount, and the types of population, which is on the green coffee. Then that theoretically, should add quite a lot of stability to it, which makes sense.
Adam Marley (00:36:44):
Like I said, we released this way later than we were intending to. And honestly it's cupping just as well as it did, when we first tried the sample. Now it was vacuum packed, which obviously helps. But definitely, that makes perfect sense, what you're saying, about the efforts you're going to, to preserving longevity of the coffee. And the quality, because this hasn't dropped off at all.
Adam Marley (00:37:05):
Thankfully, I was really nervous, and it hasn't at all. And that makes sense, yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:37:10):
And one very important point to mention, is we are improving the shelf life, with this kinds of process. If you cup our coffees, our pulped naturals, or the natural fermented, you can feel how the coffee is cupping very well, very nice. You can't believe was picked six or seven months ago.
Andre Moreira (00:37:36):
Yeah.
Nadia Moreira (00:37:36):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andre Moreira (00:37:39):
Yeah, because due to the craziness of logistics worldwide, and containers being held up everywhere, Singapore, sometimes. We experienced a few containers, held up in Singapore for several weeks. I think it is a challenge, and it becomes even more crucial for the whole industry, to be able to extend that quality. And keep that quality for longer. For roasters to be able to deliver the same quality, to their consumers.
Andre Moreira (00:38:16):
And I think it's great, to have people around us, in the industry, aware of it, and pushing hard, to make sure that we achieve that, sooner rather than later. So it's all involved in the packaging, different packaging's available at the moment. And obviously the most part, is to create a process that actually is able to deliver that, like Luiz is saying.
Adam Marley (00:38:47):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Luiz Paulo (00:38:49):
And one important point, as a producer, I think we can't look only for the coffee profile, and the coffee score. Because as a very long relationship, we need to check how we can improve the shelf life of our coffee, to our customers. Because okay, you buy a Rume Sudan today, and 90 points. And how this coffee will cup in six months, how this coffee will cup in seven months?
Luiz Paulo (00:39:27):
Because nobody knows, what can happen with your business. If you will sell this coffee in one month, two months, or three months?
Andre Moreira (00:39:34):
Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:39:35):
But if you have a guarantee, that this coffee will cup for six, or seven, or eight months, you can buy our coffee with much more comfort.
Nadia Moreira (00:39:44):
Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:39:45):
You are more willing to trade with us-
Andre Moreira (00:39:47):
Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:39:47):
Because we're looking to improve, our shelf life.
Andre Moreira (00:39:50):
I totally agree.
Luiz Paulo (00:39:51):
But sometimes the buyers come here, and just cup the coffee. "Okay, this coffee is 90 points." Or, "This coffee's 87 points." But this coffee will be 87, 88-
Andre Moreira (00:40:03):
In six months time?
Luiz Paulo (00:40:04):
... for six months?
Andre Moreira (00:40:05):
Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:40:05):
And sometime it's much better you buy that coffee, who's 87, 88, than one 90, who in six or seven months, will cup 84, 85.
Nadia Moreira (00:40:16):
Yeah. It's going to drop.
Andre Moreira (00:40:17):
Yeah. True.
Adam Marley (00:40:18):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, very true. I mean we're talking supply chain at this stage, and some of the technicalities there. Are you guys Nadia, Andre, and then Luiz, are you comfortable talking about the frost in Brazil, what effect that's had on global prices, what you think is going to happen for the future-
Luiz Paulo (00:40:38):
Sure.
Andre Moreira (00:40:38):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:40:38):
This is something, that I've been bringing up with people a lot.
Luiz Paulo (00:40:41):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:40:41):
Because I think especially a lot of the people watching this, our customers, might not be aware of the economics of coffee trade. Some of them will, they will be professionals, but a lot of them are just people drinking coffee at home, and enjoying it. So what context do they need to know, and what's been going on, six months ago, 12 months ago? And what's going to happen in the future?
Andre Moreira (00:41:00):
Uh-huh (affirmative). No, definitely I think we've got the person right on the ground, to talk about the-
Adam Marley (00:41:08):
Right, that's why I asked.
Andre Moreira (00:41:10):
... what happened last year, and how were you affected Luiz? Or the region, as a whole-
Nadia Moreira (00:41:14):
And the market? Yeah.
Andre Moreira (00:41:16):
... and the market?
Luiz Paulo (00:41:19):
Our region here, we have a reduction in terms of 30%, because the frosts. And then of course, it affects a lot of producers here. But I think this is not the real problem. The real problem was the frost, and the dry weather.
Andre Moreira (00:41:38):
The droughts, that we... Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:41:41):
The droughts, yeah. And these affect a lot. Because we had a good flower time, but we couldn't have the good results.
Andre Moreira (00:41:56):
Yeah.
Nadia Moreira (00:41:56):
And what about the way the market goes, with the fertilizers and kind of stuff, that's happening now?
Andre Moreira (00:42:03):
Yeah, costs are-
Luiz Paulo (00:42:05):
And now they had even one problem, with the cost of the fertilizers. I can say in US dollars, but comparing reais, then you can understand today one dollar, is 4.70 reais. But we paid one year ago, a ton of our fertilizers, 1,500 reais. And nowadays, we are paying for one ton of the same fertilizer, 6,000 reais.
Andre Moreira (00:42:39):
Yeah, so that's like four times.
Nadia Moreira (00:42:40):
Even five times more.
Adam Marley (00:42:40):
Yeah.
Nadia Moreira (00:42:40):
Yeah.
Andre Moreira (00:42:41):
And that's across the board, it's not only... Yeah, he's talking about fertilizers. But then you add the freight, normal freight-
Adam Marley (00:42:50):
Yeah. Yeah.
Andre Moreira (00:42:52):
... to leave the farm, and take the coffee to the port. We've experienced exporters telling us, that the price have gone up a 100%, double the price. So they used to pay one, now they pay two for the same job. The same from an international freight scenario, we used to pay 1,500 on a 20 foot container, and now we pay 8,000. Right?
Adam Marley (00:43:23):
Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:43:24):
Exactly.
Andre Moreira (00:43:25):
So it adds up-
Nadia Moreira (00:43:26):
All the market change-
Andre Moreira (00:43:28):
And as Luiz said, there's a really strong foundation, for a price spike.
Adam Marley (00:43:36):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andre Moreira (00:43:37):
It wasn't just the frost. I think the frost was that last drop in the cup, that flooded. But we've been talking to farmers year by year, and the weather has been erratic, for several years now. For five years we're hearing from farmers saying, "Look, the rain patterns aren't the same. Trees are flowering, but then there's a big percentage of abortion."
Andre Moreira (00:44:09):
It has increased, because normally due to the heat, and the time that it's got to be activated, and it doesn't allow those flowers to [inaudible 00:44:22]. So yields have been affected, because obviously if you don't you don't have cherries, you don't have beans at the end, that we need. So I think it's a combination of things, that really support that price, where we're at.
Andre Moreira (00:44:43):
Which we're still trying to get a grasp, on where we're at. But what we're [inaudible 00:44:53], is that things are still very, very difficult, still very challenging.
Nadia Moreira (00:45:00):
Challenging.
Andre Moreira (00:45:01):
But I'm not saying this to be very dramatic, and raise alarm. But I think there are producers, that are concerned of these facts, and are finding their way around them. Right? And I don't know, maybe Luiz can give us a bit of a example of what he's doing. And seeking probably better quality, because if your yields are dropping too much, you might up your standards, and focus on coffees that you're actually going to get better prices for, because you don't have that volume factor anymore.
Andre Moreira (00:45:43):
So it's still unsure, very uncertain at the moment, how this... But there's definitely good foundations, and strong facts, that are keeping those prices at the level they are, at the moment.
Luiz Paulo (00:45:59):
I think that the higher level of the market, is a combination, between many of the influences that we had in the coffee. But the worst points for us as a producer, as specialty coffee producers, we are not moving our price. We are keeping our fixed price in check. Because our price was three dollars, four dollars, five dollars, or 10 dollars, we keep the same price. But the costs is more than double.
Andre Moreira (00:46:29):
Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:46:33):
And sometime we're going to need to sit, and say, "Okay, we need to review our price." But we understand, everybody now is suffering the same problem. Now it's time to build a strong relationship, and see how we can work together in this difficult moment. This is my feeling-
Adam Marley (00:46:55):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Luiz Paulo (00:46:55):
... we need to work together.
Andre Moreira (00:46:56):
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's the opportunity we're seeing with this crises, and supply, is that actually brought people together. Brought people like farmers together, to discuss. Like now understanding that last year it was quite hard, to find quality coffees. Because a lot of people were affected, depending on the regions you're talking about. If you go to Serrano, northern from where Luiz is, I've met with farmers that had lost 90% of their crops. And we're talking about 300 hectares of coffee, not 10 hectares. Right?
Andre Moreira (00:47:41):
It's 300 hectares of coffee they lost... No, 270 with the frost. So we need to come to some kind of gather, and I think working closely with your coffee merchants, your café, with your grower, with your partner, if we all get together and think together, I think there's a way out of this. Because consumers, there's still a demand out there, that we need to meet, in a viable way for all parties.
Andre Moreira (00:48:14):
Because we can't just push all the risk, and the cost, and everything to the farmer. Because if we do that, what's going to happen? The farmers obviously, they need to sell their coffee. They're not going to hold on to their coffee. But we're killing our source of coffee. Because they're going to go out of business, they're going to go under.
Andre Moreira (00:48:33):
Because it's just not doable, with the amount costs that they invested in Brazil. I mean worldwide, we're all experienced a bit of inflation-
Nadia Moreira (00:48:34):
But I think we're so glad that we are [inaudible 00:48:34] of the market. That our roasters keep buying from us, they rework it. They're getting this on the market, and we work together, [inaudible 00:48:34]and go to the next one. And not to get farmers who [inaudible 00:48:34] I was saying. Because some of the small farmers, they're saying, "I'm going to give up of specialty," because commodity's paying the same price. And yes, for now, and if you give up-
Adam Marley (00:48:34):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Nadia Moreira (00:48:34):
You're going to have the-
Andre Moreira (00:48:34):
Not the same, but the-
Nadia Moreira (00:48:35):
Yeah, close. But they're going to give up, and in three years they're going to say, "Oh, I have to go with specialty, because now commodity's not doing well." So it's a journey that we have to do, with the farmers. And back to the roasters. And even the consumers, with the roasters that we have. And talking to them, and showing. And trying to explain what's going on the market. And how we can make the difference.
Nadia Moreira (00:49:59):
I think, I feel glad really to be on this journey, because we've seen good results. And we are available any time Adam, if you want to do something with your customers, and with your clients. And as Brazilians, to talk about this. Because I think it's really important to let them know, what's going on on the back. It's not that, "Oh, the cup of the coffee is getting so expensive." Okay, but lets just talk about how hard it is, to make this cup of coffee.
Adam Marley (00:50:31):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andre Moreira (00:50:32):
Incredible. Yeah, it's always a bit of... Everyone brings up in the coffee industry, but it is amazing, how many hands coffee needs to go through, to be able to actually experience that beverage, it's enormous. It's not made in a big warehouse, where you just pump out liters of the beverage. And you know-
Nadia Moreira (00:50:52):
It's a challenge, because all the chain can do an amazing job, and one part mess up.
Adam Marley (00:51:05):
It's usually the roasters, according to baristas. It's always the roaster's fault. It's always, blame me. Blame the roaster, if the coffee's not good.
Nadia Moreira (00:51:12):
No. It can be a barista, it can be a roaster, it can be us. You know?
Andre Moreira (00:51:21):
It can be a farmer, could be anywhere. Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:51:22):
It's fragile. Yeah. Yeah. It's a fragile... And I think that's one of the things, when you're trying to get consumers passionate about, not just enjoying the coffee, but also paying more for it than commodity coffee.
Andre Moreira (00:51:34):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:51:35):
Being willing to pay more for it, it's because it's so fragile. And it's so hard to get all of those things lined up perfectly, to have a fantastic experience. But then when you do, it kind of connects you in a way, with all the people that have put all their effort in. And all their passion in. And made their sacrifices, and born risk, to be able to get it to you.
Adam Marley (00:51:55):
To not be comfortable paying fairly for that, seems a bit cheeky. People are saying to me, they say, "Oh my god, what's happening?" Because they're asking me, family friends or whatever, they see the ABC headlines or whatever, the coffee price crisis.
Andre Moreira (00:52:08):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:52:09):
Coffee prices are going to skyrocket. And my response is always, "No, coffee prices are getting to where they should be, and they've been artificially low." Or not artificially, but they've been too low, for too long. And the reason prices are getting... The commodity price, which then for those consumers that... So even though we don't buy commodity coffee, the commodity price affects what the specialty coffee producers, will hopefully receive.
Adam Marley (00:52:37):
So the premiums should go up there, so the price carries on. But putting that aside, it's like when the commodity price is going up, for whatever reason it's gone up, I'm here hoping it stays there. That this is what becomes the norm, for people. Roasters adapt to it. Roasters get used to higher prices. And then pass that on in part, to consumers as well.
Adam Marley (00:53:01):
And consumers start to adapt to, and get used to, coffee not being this cheap thing. Coffee is not this cheap convenient product. It is this really, really difficult to produce product. Let alone then ship it across the world, to them in a consuming country. Roast it, brew it while it's fresh. Brew it correctly. And then they're going, "Oh, I don't want to pay more than four dollars for me latte." And then they'll pay seven dollars for a pint of beer.
Andre Moreira (00:53:25):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:53:25):
And I'm going, "Your priorities are messed up there." There's so many people that need to be rewarded, for putting effort in, in the supply chain. And if the demand pressure keeps prices low, then what I'm really afraid of in this current climate for prices, is that roasters will be too afraid to put their prices up for cafés. Cafés would be too afraid to put prices up for consumers. And as a result, roasters will turn to importers, and put a price pressure on them.
Adam Marley (00:53:56):
Or directly to producers and say, "I'm not going to buy the same quality I used to, I'm going to buy a lower quality coffee, and just try and achieve the same price that I used to." And exactly like you were saying Andre, if we don't choose a different path there, and still reward by paying more, for farmers that are taking risks, and putting effort in. And bearing all these extra costs, to produce something that is really, really high quality, much better.
Andre Moreira (00:54:22):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:54:22):
If instead, people just substitute down for lower quality, then if I was a producer, I wouldn't keep doing it. Right? And so in three years time, then roasters are going to turn around and go, "Where is all the really amazing 87 point coffees?" It's like, "Well, you stopped buying them." So...
Andre Moreira (00:54:36):
Yes.
Nadia Moreira (00:54:36):
Yes.
Adam Marley (00:54:39):
So it's I, yeah... Anyway. So I'm hoping that the silver lining in this whole global situation, is that consumers start to become aware of how expensive coffee should be, if everyone was being paid, what they should-
Andre Moreira (00:54:52):
Sure.
Adam Marley (00:54:52):
... at origin, where the coffee was grown, because they're not at the moment.
Andre Moreira (00:54:59):
What are your thoughts mate? Is he there?
Adam Marley (00:55:06):
Luiz, what do you think?
Luiz Paulo (00:55:09):
I think we need to explain. And I totally agree with you, we need to check our priority, when we talk about coffee price. Because as specialist coffee producers, at these last two years, the market should understand, we are absorbing all the extra costs.
Adam Marley (00:55:29):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andre Moreira (00:55:29):
Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:55:30):
The coffees who you're selling for four dollars, it's still four dollars.
Adam Marley (00:55:33):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Luiz Paulo (00:55:33):
It doesn't matter if the fertilizer was a 1,000 dollars, or 2,000 dollars, we're keeping the same price. But you know why? Because we believe the strong relationship, is the most important point at this moment. Because we have the COVID, we had the problems with the fertilizers. We have the frost, and everything. And nobody's looking. Of course, we have commodity going a higher price, but nobody understands for us, as a specialty coffee producer, we are having a very difficult time, to produce that coffee.
Adam Marley (00:56:12):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Luiz Paulo (00:56:14):
And for this coffee arrived at your place, you can't imagine how difficult it is.
Adam Marley (00:56:19):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andre Moreira (00:56:20):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:56:20):
Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:56:24):
But we are here, doing our best. And of course, I want to invite you to come to Brazil to see-
Adam Marley (00:56:30):
Oh, thank you. Yeah, that-
Luiz Paulo (00:56:32):
I wait for you and Nadia next time, for our first tour in September, I will be in Australia with you.
Nadia Moreira (00:56:41):
We'll take this guy. Because he just goes to Africa, he has to go to Brazil.
Adam Marley (00:56:48):
I haven't been back to Uganda, in over two years now, so that has to be the first trip. But yes, no I'd absolutely love to go to Brazil. And I'm sure you guys are going to nag me a lot, next time you're going over.
Andre Moreira (00:57:00):
Yeah.
Luiz Paulo (00:57:02):
And I want to show you we have now, this year will be the first year of our propagation project. We complete 100 hectares of Geisha.
Adam Marley (00:57:13):
A 100 hectares?
Luiz Paulo (00:57:13):
Yeah, a 100 hectares of Geisha.
Adam Marley (00:57:18):
I can't even imagine that.
Luiz Paulo (00:57:18):
We are doing genetic selection, to improve our cupping profile.
Adam Marley (00:57:29):
Oh. That's-
Luiz Paulo (00:57:30):
We are hard at work here, to provide a special taste to the world.
Adam Marley (00:57:34):
Yeah. No, that's exciting. I love that. Because you encounter sometimes, that producers will get exotic varietals. Geisha is the most obvious one right, because they're like, "Panama Geisha, blah, blah, blah, blah." So they get Geisha, and then they'll throw it in their farm. And then it doesn't cup like Geisha. They're expecting it, and they've got the lower yields. The extra effort. They've given up that land space. It took five years, before it started.
Adam Marley (00:57:59):
And then they cup it, and they go, "Well, this isn't what I was expecting." And then they might abandon it. Or the roaster might just try and floof it up with some fancy tasting notes. But it's exactly that. It's like the varietal needs a chance to adapt, and have variations within that location. So selecting within your farm, for the particular trees, that then thrive in that environment? That's exactly... Oh, that's brilliant. That's clever. I like that.
Adam Marley (00:58:30):
That's one of the things we keep trying to ask our growers to do, in Africa, in Uganda, is to do that. Is to select their trees, that are doing the best on their farm, and then helping them. I mean cupping, and it's hard to select for cup quality in that environment. That's a long story. But at least, higher yielding for them, because that's one of the biggest things.
Adam Marley (00:58:52):
Because some of their trees, will yield five kilos of cherries for the whole tree, it's just insane how low yielding some of these trees are. But then there's this reticence, to do exactly what you just described. To select for... But I mean, we're not talking a 100 hectares here. We're talking like two acres. But...
Andre Moreira (00:59:17):
Next time you go to Uganda Adam, you should invite Luiz to go with you.
Nadia Moreira (00:59:23):
Yeah, that's true.
Adam Marley (00:59:24):
Yeah, absolutely. [crosstalk 00:59:25] Yeah, I mean it's absolutely a beautiful country. The people are lovely. And there's so much potential there. So yeah...
Nadia Moreira (00:59:32):
First Adam must go to Brazil.
Andre Moreira (00:59:33):
Yeah.
Adam Marley (00:59:36):
Yeah. We'll do a swap. Like when kids for school go to one country, and then they swap and then they to the other country.
Nadia Moreira (00:59:46):
Exchange-
Adam Marley (00:59:49):
Exchange students. Yeah. There we go, coffee exchange. I like that. I'm the student. I'm definitely the one learning. Well that's amazing. Okay, so we've come up to an hour. And I'm very conscientious of the fact that we grabbed you Luiz, right after you were coming in. And you haven't had a chance to settle in yet. And it's nighttime for you, as opposed to the morning for us. So unless there's anything else that you guys, either of you want to add, then maybe I'll thank you-
Andre Moreira (01:00:23):
Thank you Luiz for making some time. And yeah, yeah great. Love to-
Adam Marley (01:00:29):
Yeah, thank you Luiz. Thank you.
Luiz Paulo (01:00:31):
Thank you so much. And I'm waiting for you in Brazil.
Adam Marley (01:00:35):
Yeah. Yeah.
Nadia Moreira (01:00:35):
Bye everybody, it was great to chat with you. And thank you Luiz again.
Adam Marley (01:00:41):
Thank you.
Luiz Paulo (01:00:42):
It's wonderful, I was here to explain about our coffee life.
Adam Marley (01:00:45):
Yeah.
Nadia Moreira (01:00:45):
Okay, we're going to do this more often-
Adam Marley (01:00:47):
Yeah, definitely. And Nadia and Andre, we'll do one here in Adelaide, we'll do like a public cupping if you're keen? We'll get a projector, and then you guys can talk about everything you do, and Luiz does, at Santuário Sul. Yeah, that'd be great.
Andre Moreira (01:01:04):
Oh, with the customers? Great. Yes.
Nadia Moreira (01:01:07):
Good. Let's do it-
Adam Marley (01:01:08):
Yeah. Let's talk to the end customer, explain things to them-
Andre Moreira (01:01:10):
Cool. Great. Then we can-
Adam Marley (01:01:10):
... so they understand all the effort the farmers, growers like Luiz are putting it. That would be great. And then what you get out of it in the end. It's so worth it.
Nadia Moreira (01:01:21):
The coffee. And explain what is there, and why it's that price.
Adam Marley (01:01:27):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Exactly. Yeah.
Nadia Moreira (01:01:28):
And then to buy it.
Adam Marley (01:01:30):
All right, well thank you all three of you for joining me and our customers. I'm sure everyone's learnt a lot. And really appreciative of your time. Thank you so much.
Nadia Moreira (01:01:38):
Thank you, have a good day.
Luiz Paulo (01:01:38):
Bye-bye.
Andre Moreira (01:01:38):
See you guys.
Adam Marley (01:01:40):
Thanks, we'll speak soon. And thanks everyone for watching. Bye.
Andre Moreira (01:01:41):
Bye.
Nadia Moreira (01:01:41):
Bye.