Q&A with David Train


Adam Marley (00:00:01):
Hi, everyone. Welcome to another live Q&A with me, Adam from Monastery Coffee, and we've got David Train, from Langdon Coffee Merchants, joining us as well. I just want to apologize, it's been a very long time since we've done one of these and I know a lot of you really like them, so we're going to try and make the time to do them more often.

Adam Marley (00:00:21):
Just waiting for D Train to join. I hope everyone's had a good day. The weather's a little bit more manageable today, here in Adelaide, which is nice. Our roastery air conditioning effectively doesn't work. So, if you ever see any story posts, probably more so from my personal account, complaining about the heat, it's not that I don't like summer. It's that it gets very hot in the roastery. So, today's been quite nice. Today we're going to be talking, we'll let the conversation evolve and go where it wants to. But I thought while we have Dave, we'll probably spend a lot of time talking about coffee prices, coffee farming, export, import, the carry on effects of the current situation in coffee pricing, how that affects roasters, and then end consumers.

Adam Marley (00:01:07):
A lot of you might be consumers, hopefully of our coffee, of delicious ethically traded coffee. I want to get into the word, ethical, ethically traded, what does that even mean, with Dave. I think I kind of always bring that up with people and it's a phrase that we're trying to move away from a little bit because what does it even mean? But it does capture things pretty well. I'm going to let Dave give his background, once he's joined. He's not here yet, is he? Do I have to connect with him? I have to connect with him. He's not here yet, anyway. Come on, Dave. I was very punctual though, so it's not really his fault.

Adam Marley (00:01:45):
I'll let him introduce himself. The reason I wanted to do this with Dave is because genuinely he is one of the people in coffee that I respect the most and whose opinion I think is... There's a lot of very, I don't know how to phrase this, there's a lot of very strong opinions in coffee and Dave, I'm not saying Dave doesn't have strong opinions, but he's someone that's not fanatical. He's very open minded and will look at a situation in a holistic way and not just have this one stance, based on his background or his opinion, which I really like. And I think that'll be really valuable for you guys to listen to his opinion on things.

Adam Marley (00:02:24):
The D train is running late, classic public transport. Well, he's here now. That's very [inaudible 00:02:27]. Dave, how do I get you to connect with me? There's so many buttons I don't understand. Request to join. I think Dave, you have to request to join or can I just add you? I can invite you to join. That works too.

Adam Marley (00:02:42):
... how to use this. You'd think I've done enough of these, I'd be able to work it out. I swear they keep changing the app. Hello?

David Train (00:02:52):
How's it going?

Adam Marley (00:02:52):
Not too bad. How are you?

David Train (00:02:55):
Good. Sorry, I'm late.

Adam Marley (00:02:57):
All good. It's all right. We got a good joke out of it. Can you hear me okay with the AirPod things?

David Train (00:03:06):
Yeah. All good. You hear me?

Adam Marley (00:03:07):
Awesome. Yeah, I can. I think there's going to be some people disappointed that your luscious locks are no longer, considering the photo that we posted.

David Train (00:03:14):
Oh, yeah. That was about a year ago, I think, COVID, like everyone else.

Adam Marley (00:03:21):
Oh, it was COVID? Yeah. Well, you could pull it off then, it worked.

David Train (00:03:26):
I got to have it whilst it's still growing.

Adam Marley (00:03:30):
How you doing?

David Train (00:03:32):
Yeah, really good. Obviously, we're in the same city. So the weather's been crazy, but no, I'm really well. I'm stoked to be here. How about you?

Adam Marley (00:03:44):
Awesome. Thank you for joining us. I actually already made some comments about the weather, but the weather today is nice. It's not bucketing down with rain and it's not insanely hot. It's just this nice in between, which I'm quite enjoying.

David Train (00:04:00):
Yeah. I left Melbourne, and this past week or two, Adelaide has been essentially Melbourne weather.

Adam Marley (00:04:09):
Essentially Melbourne, right? I've actually made that comment a couple of times where I'm just like, we might as well be in Melbourne, because the weather has just been so unpredictable. You don't know what you're going to get. Although, having said that, when I've been in Melbourne and it has all of a sudden been really rainy, it's also kind of cold. Whereas we've had Queensland weather, we've had rainy and you are like, "Oh, it's bucketing with rain. Yay. Cool, change." Then you go outside, you're like, no, no, it's still 30. It's just also wet.

David Train (00:04:40):
Not a fan of the humidity.

Adam Marley (00:04:43):
No, neither. It's funny because I speak to people from... We shouldn't spend the whole time talking about the weather, I speak to people from Northern Territory in Queensland, and they say, "How can you handle the dry heat here?" I'm like, "How can you handle the humidity?" So I guess, it's just what you're used to.

David Train (00:04:55):
Each to their own.

Adam Marley (00:04:58):
Exactly. So I haven't really introduced you yet, other than just kind of fanboying a little bit, but for those of our viewers who don't know who you are, I thought maybe you could give a bit of a background. Who is David? Then also, I've really enjoyed hearing you talk about how you got into green, and why that has been a goal, and maybe throw in the competition wins in there, at some point. I'm going to make you say good things about yourself.

David Train (00:05:34):
First and foremost, my name's David Train. I'd also like to acknowledge the traditional owners of land, which we have today, the Kaurna people. Pay respects to the elders past, present and the future. That might have been lost a little bit this week on some people. I have been involved in coffee or I guess, the hospitality industry since 2006 and if you want to get technical, I was working at McDonald's before that for many, many years.

Adam Marley (00:06:05):
[crosstalk 00:06:05] myself.

David Train (00:06:08):
McDonald's was fantastic. I was there for six years, but then really in independent hospitality or whatnot, since 2006 or 2007. My father bought a cafe in Sydney, had a midlife crisis. I didn't drink coffee, I hated coffee, made me start working there when I finished school. I wanted to be a soldier, and so started making coffee instead. Then he sold that in, I can't even remember, 2009, I think, it was.

David Train (00:06:45):
Then I moved to London, and to make a long story, a little bit shorter, I was in the UK for almost four years and I did wine and cocktail for a few years. Then I moved to Germany. I was in Germany for four years. I was in a place called Osterbruch, and then I was in Munich. Then I moved back to Australia in 2017.

David Train (00:07:13):
How I got into green was, this whole journey, I was always making coffee. It wasn't really... I was in London in 2009 when specialty was booming, in London, I should say. And being an Australian barista, even though we didn't do anything nearly as complicated or as precise as baristas do today, we still had a little bit of an advantage in terms of the skill level. Then I finally got a job working for a tiny roaster in the middle of Germany, roasting all sorts of coffee, good, bad, you name it.

David Train (00:07:51):
The first time I saw green coffee, the actual raw product itself, my mind was blown. I'd never really paid that much attention to the raw ingredient. I'd always been an arrogant barista that thought I was making the coffee good. Then I soon came to realize that no matter how good I was at making coffee, if that raw ingredient wasn't good, I'm never going to make it. You can't polish a turd, as they say.

Adam Marley (00:08:18):
Just blame the roaster.

David Train (00:08:21):
Exactly. And when you are the roaster, you've got no one else to blame apart from who you sourced the grain from.

Adam Marley (00:08:23):
Blame the importer.

David Train (00:08:26):
Exactly. That was maybe 2012, 2013. I'd really been like, wow, I really want to know more about the supply chain, where the coffee comes from, who grows it? How does it get here? That became my driving force in my career. As bad as it sounds, I stopped caring about how to make latte. I wanted to understand how and why a natural Ethiopian tastes this way, or how it got here, and who grew it.

David Train (00:09:02):
That was really the moment I decided to really focus my energy and my career, although I've been in coffee for six to seven years already, to really put my energy into making it a career and wanting to get into the green coffee world. So, I moved back to Australia in 2017, I was working for Code Black in Melbourne for two years, and then pretty much three years ago now, I got a job working for Langdon Coffee Merchants. Obviously, now on the green side of things.

Adam Marley (00:09:33):
That was three years ago, man, COVID, so I'm just like [crosstalk 00:09:42].

David Train (00:09:42):
Three years at Langdon's, and then I moved to Adelaide or back to Adelaide, I was born here, if anyone cares.

Adam Marley (00:09:49):
I care.

David Train (00:09:50):
Moved back to Adelaide, two days before the borders shut in 2019.

Adam Marley (00:10:00):
Good timing. You skipped over some competition stuff in that recap, a little bit there. If you don't want to talk about any accolades or things that you've achieved, because you don't want to toot your own horn, I understand that. Perhaps if there's anything, because I think a lot of people will know you from competition and perhaps I don't know where your, because you are a bit of an Instagram personality now, too. If that coincided with the competition stuff or just because you take really beautiful photos, obviously everyone, follow Dave. Even if you're not interested in the geeky coffee stuff, just for the beautiful photos.

Adam Marley (00:10:37):
If you don't want to toot your own horn or anything, maybe if there's any insight that you've gained in the competition circuit, in the competition world, that solidified things or made you question things. I think a lot of baristas idolize it, put it on this pedestal and maybe don't necessarily think about the other side of things, if that makes sense.

David Train (00:11:02):
The first time I wanted to compete was when I was still living in Germany. I was working for a roastery and we'd just opened two shops, running the wholesale and the training and barista-ing in the bar. I think like maybe three or four days before the [inaudible 00:11:21] pulled out, because I think I was just thick, just tired. When I got back into Australia, decided again, I really wanted to compete and I've been competing in Brewers Cup ever since. I drink filter coffee pretty much almost exclusively, or I've been drinking black coffee for the past 10 or 15 years.

David Train (00:11:48):
The goal of competing really was just to test here, because in coffee, apart from, you can do some SCA courses in barista-ing or brewing, or green bean or whatever, but we don't really have a syllabus or a curriculum. So I really wanted to test out theories or experiences that I had, and see whether or not it was relevant. So, comp, I've managed to really just learn. It sounds cliche, but every time you compete, you learn about something different within the industry or brewing coffee or certain flavors or whatever.

David Train (00:12:24):
So, comp has, for my personal development, been amazing. I've learned so much and met so many amazing people. I've never really won if that's what you're trying to say. I've won a regional before, but I've come third at the nationals two years in a row now, but for personal development, and I guess professional development, it's been phenomenal. Has it really helped me with my day job? Not really. My day job doesn't really consist of making coffee. I cup a lot of coffee...

Adam Marley (00:13:00):
Neither does mine.

David Train (00:13:05):
So, there are many, many baristas and people that can brew way better coffee than I can. It helped me have motivation and drive to learn. And every time I've competed or I've learned, this is over five years, you learn a lot more about the industry itself. That's been obviously beneficial for my career in terms of just a fundamental understanding of coffee itself whilst also being a super nerd.

Adam Marley (00:13:36):
You get to geek out quite a lot with some really expensive, fun coffees. That's Daniel apologizing because he just tried to call me. If the sound went funny for a little bit, Daniel was interrupting us, but he's apologized, it's okay. We maybe forgive you, Daniel.

Adam Marley (00:13:53):
Onto the general topic, I did mention before you joined that, I'm happy for the conversation to evolve as it wants to. For everyone that I do these with, I always tell them, this is a soapbox if you want to use it as one. I don't think you're a very soapboxy kind of person, but feel free to just throw things in and steer the conversation to where you think it's important for us to be having a conversation.

Adam Marley (00:14:20):
Overall, this was about coffee prices, I've seen in some articles, it's being called the current coffee price crisis, which is an interesting take in and of itself. My leading question, my opening question was, from your perspective, what's a good way of summarizing, very shortly. I have quite a lot of stuff here. If we don't get through it, that's okay, we can do another Q&A. What is the current situation for coffee prices and coffee trade in the world? For those that haven't seen the mainstream media articles and then for those that have, what's your take on their perspective? What's the media getting right? What's the media not getting right? Or not really having enough nuance in? For those that are watching this out of curiosity, but don't even know that there's a situation in coffee prices at the moment.

David Train (00:15:15):
It depends on how involved you are in the industry, but I think now everyone should have some maybe understanding that coffee pricing has increased whether or not they...

Adam Marley (00:15:25):
[crosstalk 00:15:25] coffee prices.

David Train (00:15:27):
Exactly. We'll get onto the price of [inaudible 00:15:32]. The actual price of coffee as a raw commodity, soft commodity as... Put into context, since was it April 2019, it's increased 166% of today's price. That's the raw cost of good as a soft commodity traded on the New York stock exchange. Now why has that happened? Lots of things have really contributed to this, COVID has been one, supply and demand, but essentially Brazil, who is the powerhouse of the coffee industry. They are the general motors of coffee. They produce extreme amounts of coffee, more than double or even triple I think to the next highest output. They were going through a horrendous drought, the hardest drought in 91 years.

David Train (00:16:36):
Then basically overnight, massive frost came through and decimated their crops. So really, what happens there is again, supply and demand. You've got Brazil that controls the price effectively, and then overnight they've lost, we're still trying to figure out the actual amount of coffee that's been lost. Some reports are five million, some reports are 10 million bags, one bag is 60 kilos. That means, they've lost all this amount of coffee, and that's just obviously skyrocketed the commodity raw product price as a contract traded on the New York stock change. That's sort of the easiest way of explaining as to why the price has gone up.

Adam Marley (00:17:21):
No, that's good. That's a great explanation. Yeah, it's great. For those that didn't do any kind of econ in uni or high school, what that comes down to is, Brazil's not setting a price for coffee from Columbia or anywhere else. The demand and supply because Brazil produces so much of the total of the world's coffee and keep in mind, we're talking commodity coffee, effect specialty, we'll talk about that, but it's treated as homogenous products. So for those that aren't aware, coffee from Brazil, people will substitute coffee from Columbia, coffee from Vietnam, coffee from wherever it might be.

Adam Marley (00:17:54):
As a result, if the largest producer of coffee in the world, all of a sudden has a massive reduction in the amount of coffee they can produce for consumers, for importers, exporters, roasters, and the end user, then there's less coffee around and demand and supply dictates the prices go up. Those other factors, there are quite a lot of factors in there and we only have an hour. Are there any things that specifically, other than the issues with Brazil and frost and drought, and demand and supply, COVID, shipping lines, workers moving from country to country and the inability for them to do that during a harvest?

Adam Marley (00:18:30):
What other things, because there's so many factors here, and I'm going to link some articles. I can't do that on Instagram, but we're going to put this up on a blog post and then I'll link some articles in there. Dave, I'll ask for your recommendation for some articles as well, blog posts that people can dive deeper into these issues. But for you personally, what were the things that stood out the most for you that maybe people weren't thinking about or were a bit blindsided by, maybe they didn't think about until it hits them in the back pocket. If we're talking roasters, perhaps, being nice to people at the same time.

David Train (00:19:02):
I think just the reliance that we have on the C market and how that really dictates all forms of coffee, especially all commodity. I think that really blindsided a lot of people. This is because for the past five or six years, coffee has been... People are saying historical highs, which is bullshit for better or worse, coffee was historically low. It was the lowest it had been. In April 2019, it was 86, basically 87 US cents per pound, and that was the lowest that it really had ever been.

David Train (00:19:42):
Then obviously, people have been buying coffee for these five years as the price had been going down and coffee as a trend, or as an industry had started exploding. Then as the price, it pivoted overnight, that's really called a lot of people out and they're like, regardless, I only buy specialty grade or this or that. But that was made irrelevant because that price had jumped up so high that everything else had to change with it. Then obviously, all the other factors around the world with all the other major producing countries have caused huge amounts of issues within the supply chain itself.

David Train (00:20:25):
Even though Brazil is having issues with the frost, and lower levels of crop, this coming season, you had strikes in Columbia for two months where they weren't allowing any export. There's a civil war in Ethiopia. You've got workers in Honduras and El Salvador, they can't cross borders to help do harvest. You then got, internal currencies changing against the US dollar, et cetera. All of these things, although not tied to the Brazil frost have changed and affected the costs of the raw good. So I think, a lot of people were blindsided by the complexities of the price of coffee and how one part affects a lot, the butterfly effect really. And COVID just happened to make that worse, and then we're not even talking about shipping delays or things of that as well.

Adam Marley (00:21:21):
Yeah, and cost increasing, because shipping containers really hard to come by. It's like, not just in coffee, but in every industry and obviously, I'm in coffee, so I speak to... It affects us directly, but I'm speaking to people in other industries as well. For some of them, they're saying that the cost of exporting, of bringing a container into Australia, like a 24 container has basically tripled overnight, and it's the same for coffee. Now, those numbers won't be the same for everyone, but all these things... What is it? What's the phrase? Everything hits at once, the perfect storm.

David Train (00:21:56):
When it rains it pours. It was a perfect storm of everything going wrong to everyone that had made the price go up. The positive output in all of this is that producers get paid more money.

Adam Marley (00:22:13):
Exactly. It's one of those things... Although, having said that, its just absolutely fantastic. That's a good thing, and that's what we're striving to do, but I'd say for us, it's what we're striving to do in a long term, sustainable way. At the moment, it's a volatility issue. What happens is the price will, we don't know, no one can know these things, but the price has gone up and producers are earning a lot more money, fantastic. Keeping in mind, a lot of the producers are earning more money because they yield to these factors. So they need to earn more money per kilo.

Adam Marley (00:22:45):
They might be coming out in a similar position, but particularly in Brazil obviously, but that price might then bottom overnight as well. There's so much volatility. It's one of those things that, for me, what it's highlighted, I was already cognizant of these things, but maybe made it easier to demonstrate to consumers who aren't professionals in coffee, that aren't aware of these supply chain intricacies, is a volatility that, yes, the market is subject to. But then that also means the growers are subject to, and financially they're the ones least able to bear that risk, that volatility.

Adam Marley (00:23:21):
It's like, things moving up overnight, great for producers, moving down overnight, it could also happen. It just shows the... There's a great phrase for it, but I can't remember what it is at the top of my mind, but it's like the lack, it's kind of fragility. Fragility is not the right word, but the fragility in the current system that we have for global coffee trade, growing trade, roasting, export, sorry, and then consumption. Fragile is not the right word, but hopefully people are getting what I'm leaning towards. Butterfly effect is a great way to put it, but it's like, a couple of things just lined up and all of a sudden 160% in two to three years increase in price.

Adam Marley (00:24:03):
For those that, it maybe went over quickly. What Dave was mentioning was, the media might be portraying to people that the coffee prices has started here, it's been doing this for the last 30 years and now it's done this all of a sudden, but it's not. It's done this for the last 30 years. And right now, we were at the bottom of the trough and now we're at the, we don't know if it's the peak or not, but we're going back up. So kind of illustrates that volatility.

David Train (00:24:31):
The one thing that people don't realize is that the coffee peaks and troughs over the past 30 odd years, it's averaged out to always be roughly about 150, 160 US cents per pound, but that's over the whole period of time. If you think of inflation and the cost of goods over those 30 years, I spent most of my childhood in Sydney and the cost of housing from... I'm 33 years old, so the cost of a house from when I was a child to now in Sydney is probably tenfold. That $1.50 over 30 years, and they're getting paid the same amount. That is where the fundamental issue is. Is that, it shouldn't have had peaks and troughs like this.

David Train (00:25:13):
In hindsight, the reason why it was so low is, we actually don't drink enough coffee, as ironic as that sounds. There is an over supply in Brazil, they've become so good at growing coffee and cultivating coffee, and harvesting coffee that we've had just too much. So, we've just had an oversupply, which has kept the prices quite low. Which is really annoying if you're not a Brazilian coffee farmer.

Adam Marley (00:25:42):
Yeah. That's definitely true, and we go back to demand and supply there. That's the viewpoint from supply to consumption. But I suspect also, if we look at it from the viewpoint of consumption to supply, there is definitely also, I suspect, more so in coffee than a lot of other industries, not everything but in a lot of other industries or a lot of other markets, I should say. That consumers have this a abhorrence against the price of coffee increasing, even at the same pace or less than the pace of the CPI of inflation in whatever consuming country. We're not just talking about Australia, whatever consuming country they're in. So, a lot of people might think, oh, well, too bad if the prices go up for the cafe, because then the prices would go up for the consumer eventually. And those prices went up because the price went up from the roasters, the cafe, so on and so forth.

Adam Marley (00:26:37):
But I think what a lot of people that aren't in the industry don't realize is, the consumer and as a result, the cafe puts a price pressure on the roaster who then puts a price pressure on the importer who then puts a price pressure on the growers. And because there is this over supply, all of a sudden, there's a lot of growers, maybe not right now, but if we look back at 2019 who are producing coffee below their cost of, they were selling coffee below their cost of production because they needed to make something, anything from the sale of their coffee. But the market was just so competitive, because there was such a high supply of coffee that, and then there was this negative price pressure. So I don't know if we need to talk about that too much. It's just going to come across as us bitching. [crosstalk 00:27:19] both of us.

David Train (00:27:23):
The context of it all really is, I've been involved in coffee since 2007 and we were selling lattes for $3.50, and I think now maybe, it's $4 at max in most cafes. Australia ranked currently like 57th in cost of coffee per cup in the world out of developed nations. Which is pretty low considering we have the highest minimum wages in the world. 166% on a $4 latte is $6 and 64 cents. So, in two years, if it had gone up at the same time, it should cost you $6.64. We will not dive too much into this because it can come across as bitching or moaning, but I am rather passionate about the price obviously [inaudible 00:28:16].

Adam Marley (00:28:18):
Yeah, ditto. Same thing for me, I just want people to be... And it's not just for coffee. I think a lot of people aren't aware that... There's this phrase that grandparents say, but I think it's lost in the generations. It's like vote what you want. I think a lot of people now are starting to... There's this phrase for it, but socially conscious purchasing, people are aware of the impacts of their purchases, but people's choices when they're choosing which coffee to buy, how much that they're willing to pay for it. I just want everyone to be aware that, that actually has a big impact all the way down the supply chain or up the supply chain to the grower at the end of the day. It does have an impact. Let's just leave it there.

David Train (00:29:04):
It does, it does.

Adam Marley (00:29:06):
It does have a massive impact. A lot of people, they see the... The articles always focus on the supplier to consumption kind of point of view, like Wall Street Journal, things like that, I find. I just like to reiterate people but the choices that you make do have an impact, your vote counts. In the same area, but perhaps without either of us getting on a soapbox, hopefully. This is very much just predictions, very, very pie in the sky, none of us can know these things, but you have a lot of experience. How do you think this is going to play out in terms of these increase in the raw product?

Adam Marley (00:29:46):
For those that aren't aware, for people that aren't coffee professionals themselves. When we talk about green coffee, we're talking about the raw product before it's then exported, imported and roasted by a roaster in the consumption and consuming country. This price of the raw product, how do you think, either it already is, or it's going to play out in terms of effects it will have for roasters? Then, will those effects pass down to cafes and consumers? Will roasters simply substitute for cheaper coffee? What do you think how that might play out if you, if you're willing to make a guess? No one hold Dave to these guesses, they are guesses, they are not predictions. Don't come back in three years time and go, "Hahaha, he was wrong."

David Train (00:30:30):
Yeah, exactly. Please don't quote me as it may change overnight, and that's one of the issues with coffee pricing as it is. It is spec driven, soft commodity, it's traded almost on speculation.

Adam Marley (00:30:46):
Yeah, it absolutely is.

David Train (00:30:46):
No, I is. It's 100%. It's like Bitcoin, it's up and down. We won't really know more of the long term effects, at least for a few more months, because Brazil's not in harvest at the moment. So, we're waiting on rains, et cetera in Brazil to make sure flowerings will start happening. Then we'll be able to have a better understanding of how that's going to drive the cost of coffee. We feel that it's not really going to dip anytime soon, overnight, it's going to be raised considerably more than what it used to be for the medium term or the short to medium term.

David Train (00:31:29):
Now, how that affects roasters in Australia, it's already started affecting roasters here in Australia. The costs of these coffees, both from Columbia and Brazil have had their harvests or even in the middle of their harvest and have started of shipping coffees into the country. Now, those prices are obviously a lot higher than what they used to be, in some cases double than what they used to be.

David Train (00:31:51):
Then now, what we have is a lot of East Africa and Central America are starting harvest. So they're coming on board and obviously with the prices being as high as they are, that means that their prices are going to be more. So, roasters are already feeling, every roaster regardless of their size, whether they're big or small will have started to come across price increases. For those significantly larger roasters that have brought forward huge amounts of coffee, even them, really now, as they start to draw down their stockings, they're going to have to start absorbing that cost.

David Train (00:32:30):
That's the hardest thing is, how is that going to trickle down to the consumer? That's not really for me to answer because I'm consistently talking to the coffee roasters and I try to keep a very open and honest dialogue all the time about what's happening with where we're getting coffee from and the prices, why certain things are contributing to that. Then, I tell the roasters, the only way that this will change is, they, unfortunately, the roasters have to get their cafes to charge more.

David Train (00:33:04):
Then in turn, those cafes are scared to charge more because the other cafe down the road or whatever is a little bit cheaper. They don't want to lose business. It's a really hard thing, and I can only speculate as to the cost has to go up just because everyone else is being charged more. The roasters are definitely already feeling it. I'm assuming most of the cafes as well, would be having conversations with their supplier. They would've said, coffee is... It's not even just the coffee, the packaging that they get, their coffee-

Adam Marley (00:33:44):
Because of those shipping issues, that affects so much packaging comes from China. It's like the cost of everything. Then the lead times and everything has just skyrocketed as well. Everything's taking forever to come into Australia. I want to give a shout out to our accounts, like Monastery Coffee's accounts, because you mentioned just then, I'm sure cafes were already having conversations with their roasters. I've had a few of our accounts and we've said to them, that example you gave where roasters that buy on forward.

Adam Marley (00:34:14):
We buy for our blend components on forward, which means that these price effects aren't starting to us until now, I think we are getting our first lot of Columbian delivered next week, which is on the new prices for us. The higher prices that have basically been impacted by these effects. Because we bought on forward, there's been a bit of a buffer time for us, bit of a delay. It's also going to coincide with us buying a much larger roaster. So I'm hoping, I want to say tentatively confident, and I'm very much hoping that we probably won't have to pass on any carryon increases in our blend price because we're going to have like a fourfold increase in our efficiency with our roasting. It's a huge bill to lowering for anyone playing at home.

David Train (00:34:59):
I know how expensive they are.

Adam Marley (00:35:01):
I hope you know how expensive they are. There's a huge bill, it'll take us a lot to pay off, but it's worth it plus efficiency improvements. Anyway, getting back to the point is that, our accounts that have approached us about it have all said, "Look, we know what's going on in this situation. If you need to increase prices, we get it. You're a small business too, we need you to be sustainable. Can you just give us a heads up?" And they've all been absolutely lovely about it, and that's why I love our accounts so much. We have the loveliest accounts.

Adam Marley (00:35:26):
I speak to other roasts and thank you to all our accounts that watch this. I appreciate you because I speak to other roasters and not every cafe is as lovely as all of you guys are, but that's the point. Especially specialty coffee, the cafe is a small, independent, family owned business. The roaster is probably a pretty small, independent, family owned business. Even a lot of the importers, people picture importers as being these massive conglomerates, if you're talking about [inaudible 00:35:51] and stuff, sure, but a lot of them aren't. Everyone is looking at how the situation's going to play out with a little bit of trepidation because one's got a huge amount of buffer there, I don't think the industry is so this is for tiny businesses.

David Train (00:36:08):
There are some businesses or importers that might be better suited or had a larger buffer just because they are huge multinationals with vertical integration. Then there are some that are smaller, independent businesses that we just don't have the same financial freedoms as others. So everyone is feeling the strain on all of that. I guess for us on the positive is, all of the producers or the exporters we talk to, they've been very empathetic towards us because they understand, prices are higher, roasters are going to be willing to pay these prices. Are they willing to purchase from the same origin again? Some roasters aren't, they just can't fit that financial cost on certain origins into their blends or into their portfolio. So, they can't buy certain coffees, which is a shame.

David Train (00:37:11):
So, there's that empathetic reaction from them, but that coffee's still going to get bought at an elevated price, which is fantastic for them, but the whole supply chain's really feeling it. There was a comment here from, it takes a village, that as a small cafe in a middle class area, we increased prices by 10% this year and lost very few customers, if any. People expect inflation across the board, which is 100% correct because 10% is marginal considering some of the coffees that the roasters are buying are honestly 50%, if not more higher in cost. So the roaster is absorbing that price. That's the hardest part, it has to change.

Adam Marley (00:37:58):
I think a lot of cafes are... Thanks for that comment guys, any cafe owners that watch this. I think a lot of cafe owners are maybe a lot more afraid of a negative reaction from consumers for price increases than what is... They're more afraid than what they need to be. Obviously, that's easy to say and I get the fear, especially at the moment because of COVID everyone's coffers are empty, so there's no real buffer there. In my experience, consumers are a lot less price sensitive for cafes than a lot of cafe owners.

Adam Marley (00:38:35):
I think maybe 20 years ago, people went to the cheapest cafe on the block maybe, but these days proximity is still king. What's close to you and convenient for you, either work or home, but also it's the staff, it's the fit out. It's obviously, the food, the music choices. People, especially now, everyone's feeling a bit of a pinch because of COVID, going out to a cafe becomes a little luxury. I think people will be much more concerned about having a fantastic experience than they will about a latte going up 10 cents.

Adam Marley (00:39:12):
Now again, it's easy for me to say that from here, and I get that, but I think, don't be afraid to charge what your product is worth. I think that's one of the things I find so often with cafe owners and just like, it's a fantastic product, it's fantastic service. Then they're going, "Oh, but I can't be 10 cents more than that guy down the street, who's got terrible service and a terrible product." I'm like, "Yes, you can because you're better."

David Train (00:39:37):
I've had conversations with some friends of mine also that own cafes. And obviously, I'm a few steps away in the supply chain, but I try to keep them informed obviously, of what's going on. For better or worse, I've said the same things like, you don't have to charge the same as the person down the road because your product is better, and you can explain why. From the fit out to the fact that you weigh everything to all the bits and bots. There's a point of difference. We're very spoiled here in South Australia, particularly when it comes to wine.

David Train (00:40:13):
You can go to the pub and drink a glass of wine, or you can go to a wine bar and drink a glass of wine and price points are dramatically different, and obviously the product is different. The difference in the product you're probably getting in the wine bar is a higher quality and therefore people are expecting to pay for. There are cafes that are coffee shops, there are [inaudible 00:40:33] shops that have coffee. There are kebab shops that have a latte.

David Train (00:40:36):
And if they all have the same price, the point of difference is nothing apart from the fact that one just looks better and the coffee does taste better, but it still costs the same as the other person's. My piece of advice to a cafe is, if you believe, and if your product is better, then don't be afraid to charge accordingly.

Adam Marley (00:40:56):
Yeah, your customers will support you.

David Train (00:40:58):
Again, it's very easy for me to say, because I do not own a café. I don't have to deal with that stress, but it's what I would do had I my own place.

Adam Marley (00:41:15):
No, I think that's true. It's funny, because I think a lot of cafe owners would be the kind of people that would say the phrase, you get what you pay for when they're the consumer. If they're a consumer, it's going to make complete sense to them. It's just like a $9 bottle of wine from Dan Murphy's and the $35 bottle of wine from East End Cellars. Sorry, that's an Adelaide reference for everyone. The $35 bottle is going to be better. They're afraid that their customers won't do the same thing, but of course they will. Everyone does. Everyone knows that if something's better, you need to pay more for it because it's better because, everything costs more.

Adam Marley (00:41:53):
The staff are paid more, the ingredients cost more, the coffee costs more, the milk costs more, everything costs more. Those costs don't just disappear. Again, same with what you're saying, it's easy for me to say that. I am actually part owner of a café, I kind of remember what we charge. I know that our customers are absolutely lovely and our customers, they're going to support us because they like everything. That's why they support us, not because it's the cheapest, to sum it up. Not very neatly, but quickly.

Adam Marley (00:42:38):
I've got a bunch of other stuff I want to ask. I think Anders is still here, wave if you're still here, Anders. He threw in a couple of questions, which I thought were really good. So I'm going to throw them your way. Again, feel free to push it in the direction which you think is more useful for people, if you'd like to. So, how do you keep coffee buying... I wrote suitable in my notes, I think it's sustainable. How do you keep coffee buying sustainable when it's such a global industry? We've covered a bit of that. I think this is a good case in point. I'm going to give a bit more context. Doesn't 86 point coffee from Africa deserve the same price as an 86 point coffee from Central America?

David Train (00:43:16):
No, it doesn't.

Adam Marley (00:43:18):
Next question.

David Train (00:43:18):
Well, no. That's the same as, is a bottle of Domaine Romanee-Conti, the world's most expensive wine better than anything that we have here in south Australia? Maybe not, probably not. Is it worth more? Yes. You can't charge the same. There's so many things that contribute to an 86 point coffee from Central America or from Africa. Whether that's the cost of production, fertilizers, the way the coffee's traded, all these sorts of things. So no, you can't charge the same. Anyone that's bought coffee from East Africa versus Central America will know that those East Africans, they're always going to be more expensive anyway.

Adam Marley (00:44:10):
Yeah. They're harder to grow. They're harder to mill. They're harder to export, heaps of landlocked countries there. Thanks for that answer, I really like that answer. And I like the question. Thank you, Anders for the question. That question comes from, I think a lot of people think that way, particularly a lot of baristas when they're starting to get excited about it. They're going, we've got this...

Adam Marley (00:44:34):
For anyone playing at home that hasn't, 86 points, there's a hundred points scoring system, blah, blah, blah, you guys can dig deep. You can do your own research on that. But the theory, ideally 86 points means it's the same quality. So if you go, well, if the price is determined based on the quality, how come they don't have the same price? But it's not just determined based on the quality. It's also determined based on the cost of inputs and other things.

Adam Marley (00:44:58):
One of the things that I think a lot of people don't really stumble across in their initial research is like, purchasing power parody. You mentioned before, US dollar for these different currencies, it might mean the difference between $12 Australian and $15 Australian for the same point score coffee from two different places that does not translate to a $3 difference in the local currency for those growers. Even if you ignored, even if you adjust for the exchange rate difference, then in each of those countries, how much does $3 buy you? In one country, that'll buy you lunch and in another country, that buys you absolutely nothing, three Australian dollars. It's one of those things that I think a lot of people-

David Train (00:45:37):
It's also...

Adam Marley (00:45:37):
Go, please.

David Train (00:45:41):
It also comes back to the country of origin, depending where it's from have, if you look at Columbia and the FNC, they have a minimum export price or a differential, which is always above the C market. That's to hold the integrity of Columbian coffee to be... Even though it's 86 points, it's going to be plus however many cents over the market, regardless of whatever you say.

David Train (00:46:06):
Then in like Kenya or in Ethiopia, you've got the Nairobi Coffee Exchange, et cetera. So they have a certain price structure that they're going to say, no, we need to sell our coffee at X price because of this. And although the points are the same, clearly, you can't get the same price for all of that. Otherwise, there's no incentive either for producers or growers to grow coffee if it's the same thing. It's kind of communism in a way, in theory, it sounds good, but it's not really going to work.

Adam Marley (00:46:45):
That just escalated. Incentive is the word I want to highlight for people who are at home there, not the word communism, but it's about aligning incentives. We go back to, and again, people can do their own research. We don't have enough time to go in to do deeply, but we're talking about the price of commodity coffee going up here, 160%. People that do have a bit of knowledge and they are professionals who potentially have a lot of knowledge. They're going, well, how come my specialty price is increasing? Because my importer has told me that those contracts are negotiated outside.

Adam Marley (00:47:12):
They're not based on the C price, they're not based on the commodity price. So how come the price of commodity coffee from Brazil affecting the commodity coffee global market is affecting my specialty coffee, which is traded outside of C prices, because the demand is [inaudible 00:47:25]. A producer is then going to go, well, if before I was getting a 20%, 30% premium for putting all this extra work in, bearing more risk and spending more on my inputs. And now, because that price is theoretically remaining the same, the specialty price, but then this commodity price, now it's only at 10% premium. I don't know if it's worth it.

Adam Marley (00:47:45):
So those premiums need to increase to make it attractive to align those incentives, make it attractive for producers. It's like, yeah, the percentage needs to stay, ideally similar, otherwise what's the point? I wouldn't do it. I'm not going to put all the extra effort into growing all of our commodity coffee, easy, right?

David Train (00:48:02):
Exactly. Something I wanted to highlight as well is when people have asked me about that as well. I deal with some really good roasters that have been doing the right thing for a really long time and buying really good coffees. They're saying, we've been buying this and it's always been twice as much as whatever the C was or three times, et cetera. Then obviously, the market jumps up. They're not annoyed, the price increase they understand, but it's because, obviously, you've got to incentivize the producer to make them want to produce their coffee because otherwise they sell wet parchment and they get more money. That's great.

Adam Marley (00:48:43):
Faster with less risk.

David Train (00:48:46):
If you're going to pay me a full time salary to only work 20 hours a week, of course I'm going to take it. We need to make sure that if we want to drink these amazing coffees or buy these amazing coffees, that incentive needs to be there. Obviously, if the raw based product costs this much, we have to increase the specialty premium or price that people are willing to pay.

Adam Marley (00:49:13):
It's funny because going back before I mentioned, because we buy a blend on forward, like a lot of roasters do. So, there's been a bit of time lag that's affecting us. We buy our single origins in spot, and so there hasn't been any time lag, but I just hadn't really noticed until the other day we were like, we were looking at our shelf with all of our singles. I'm like, "There's no coffees available at the moment under $20 for a 250 grand bag." That's the first time ever that that's happened, usually there's a good mix.

Adam Marley (00:49:40):
As roasters ourselves, we don't put a price on the coffee just based on the cup score or what we think we can sell it for. We put the price based on what the price was to us from the importer who puts their prices based on what the price was to them, blah, blah, blah. So on, so forth down the supply chain. So, I don't really think about it. I just go, "We have a spot on our [inaudible 00:49:55] for this coffee. It's delicious, we need a new coffee, great, let's get it." Then we just put whatever price we need to on the bag. The way we do our math there is to work out, that it doesn't matter for us. It doesn't matter if it's $24 bag of coffee an $18 bag of coffee, we make the same money per bag. That's the way I've done our math, our internal math.

Adam Marley (00:50:16):
So, we have no incentive to try and only focus on the really expensive coffees. We want to also have these other options for people. The reason for that is just simply because we want consumers to have an option. For some people, $24 for a bag of coffee is too much. I think it's not too much, but anyway, everyone gets to make their own decision there. That still only works out to like a dollar something per AeroPress at home guys. You get like 16 brews out of a bag. Anyway, we want to have a $16, $18 option for them and we just don't at the moment. And that's when it hit me.

Adam Marley (00:50:47):
When I went back over our purchasing recently in the last few times, I'm just like, yeah, everything's really expensive at the moment. It's one of those things. That's how we noticed it. Previously, I actually don't know if it's going to matter to people or not. We actually don't have the data to know whether or not our customers are price sensitive, because all the coffees are always sitting in that room, all the single origins in that room, where I think people aren't that price sensitive anymore.

Adam Marley (00:51:20):
But if you do have any feedback for us, please tell me. If you're just like, "Hey Adam, why is all the coffee really expensive at the moment?" You can text that to me, that's absolutely okay. I need the feedback. That would be really useful, thanks. It's just one of those things. I was listening to... You were keeping us updated. I love how much you keep us updated. So were a lot of our other importers. Giving us heads up, this is what's going on. I was like, okay, cool, good to know. Then it still snuck up on us a little bit, but not in a bad way. I'm like, this is what the coffee's worth, so this is the price we need to charge for it.

Adam Marley (00:51:56):
If people don't want to pay that, then that's fine. They won't buy it. That's okay. Other people will, every home has coffee. I'm just going to underline the point I made. Every time someone's like, like my friends, I'm not poking fun at any of that because my friends will be like, "Whoa, your coffee's really expensive, man." I'm just like, "You pay $4 every day for a latte. You buy our most expensive coffee and you make it at home with an AeroPress, it costs you a $1.50." Keep going out to cafes, they really need your support, but even the most expensive retail bags of coffee, it's still not that expensive, guys. [crosstalk 00:52:32].

David Train (00:52:34):
I don't talk about the price of coffee at parties anymore. Not that anyone goes to parties anymore, but social scenario.

Adam Marley (00:52:41):
Yeah. Talking about the price of coffee is bad conversation anyway, that's just boring for non coffee people. Which is what we're doing right now, but people can just volunteer to not watch it if they find it boring. Whereas, at a party you've kind of trapped them in the conversation. "Do you know what's happening in the C price?"

Adam Marley (00:53:02):
Another question from Anders, this is a really big question and this might even be a whole Q&A on its own. I'll let you answer or dodge, however you see fit because it's such a massive, and again, we can probably find some great articles to link to people in the blog post we put up for this. It's been a tough decade for producers with market crashes, La Roya, climate change, et cetera. What will they likely need to do? I'm going to add in, and can they do, to survive the next decade?

David Train (00:53:36):
I don't know if I want to paraphrase is the correct word, but Lucia Solis, she was chatting about this recently. Her podcast is phenomenal. Everyone needs to listen to it.

Adam Marley (00:53:47):
You have to subscribe. And we did an IGTV with her as well. So scroll through and find that, guys.

David Train (00:53:56):
They need to diversify their portfolio. They need to plan more things than just coffee. In plain simple terms, they need to find up way to supplement their income because coffee, depending on where they're from and harvest once a year, they do all that work to get basically paid once a year. So they need to find a way really, to be financially sustainable. They need to find a way to find more income.

David Train (00:54:21):
Secondly, I don't want to like we're screaming in it, but having more biodiversity on your farm is always a good thing. Shade grown coffee, keeping different crops, et cetera, in there is always going to be beneficial. That's kind of the short answer to that question, is the way to make it for them a sustainable future. Doesn't necessarily have to mean environmentally sustainable to be financially sustainable, is to find a way to potentially diversify their crop. Otherwise, they might not be here in 10 years time, which is really not what we want.

Adam Marley (00:55:00):
Yeah, exactly. That was Anders question, and then I immediately added to that. I'm like, then what can we do as coffee buyers, as coffee consumers, as roasters to help make coffee sustainable in the long term, high quality, Arabica coffee sustainable in the long term? And climate change is giant red flag there. If anyone hasn't checked out World Coffee Research in their work yet, please do so. We proudly support WCR because the work they're doing is absolutely crucial when it comes to climate change.

Adam Marley (00:55:32):
I also want to take a little sidestep that neither Dave, I, or Lucia are coffee growers ourselves. They are the ones that should be the voices that we are hearing in these conversations. So, take everything we say with a grain of salt. I mean, Lucia, I think you can take a lot less salt with Lucia because she worked with producers for a living. I don't think she has a farm, but not yet maybe. Anytime you hear someone who isn't a farmer themselves, particularly if it's a white man [crosstalk 00:56:05] country.

David Train (00:56:05):
I am very aware of my white privilege and it is not lost on me. I try to empathize with everyone that we buy coffee from and supply coffee to, but I know that my quality of life and my lifestyle puts me in a certain level of privilege. And I can only try to shine, communicate what we can do on our end, and hopefully that helps people on the other end. But I don't want to be a white savior, that's not my purpose in life. I just want to try and make the world a slightly better place when I leave it.

Adam Marley (00:56:43):
Yeah. In our IGTV with Lucia, she very, very gently, very politely... Actually, I don't know if it was the question, if it was on our coffee... Anyway, mentioned the word in empower, which a lot of roasters, and [inaudible 00:57:00], I think it was a person's question. So thank you to whoever that was for that question, but Lucia kind of sides everybody. She's like, "Let's talk about that word empower and what that means." Then it goes into this whole, the white savior thing.

Adam Marley (00:57:12):
Yeah, just hadn't looked at it from that perspective before, and it's like, no, no. It's a business transaction and this is not charity. It's a business transaction. So we go back to, what can we do as consumers, as the privileged people in the wealthy consuming country is to choose what we're buying carefully. Realize that what we're choosing to buy has an impact and value things and pay people fairly. Otherwise it's not sustainable and everyone's just going to grow a Robusta and commodity coffee, because they have no other choice. And that doesn't taste good for those that haven't experienced it yet. I envy you. I had the worst Robusta recently. I was like, I literally, it was attacking me. I was like, I like [inaudible 00:57:56].

David Train (00:57:57):
A very, very unique flavor profile.

Adam Marley (00:58:01):
It was defect deliberately. It was like some moldy and it was just defensive. But the reason I mentioned Robusta, guys, and WCR is because current climate change estimates was like 20 years, 50% of the world's Arabica growing regions would no longer be able to sustain Arabica. Robusta can handle hotter temperatures, can be grown lower down. Again, we don't have time to go into that so people should do their own research if they're curious and I really encourage them to do so.

Adam Marley (00:58:30):
We've got two minutes left. I'm just going to say, thank you so much for your time, Dave. I always appreciate your time. I'm lucky I get to have these conversations with Dave all the time. You guys don't get to be here with us. Not that I'm denying you too, but usually it happens over a beer. I thank you, as always for your time and your insight. I think it'd be really valuable for everyone that manages to catch this video. We're going to put this video up on our IGTV so that people can watch it at a convenient time, and you can also share it with friends.

Adam Marley (00:59:03):
We're going to put it on our blog post and our website as well. I'll grab some suggestions from you and I'll come up with some suggestions for blog articles and links to link to on our blog, where this video will be. I'm going to quickly sign off. I don't know if I'll have enough time. I want to start signing these off with asking you a couple of personal questions, but like fun ones. Let's see if we can get both. First one is, what is your most memorable coffee you've ever had? Not only the best, but the most memorable coffee you've had or the experience.

David Train (00:59:34):
Oh, that's a tough one. There's two, and I'll be brief. The first one was a double espresso in Hamburg from a cafe called Less Political roasted by [MackHandle 00:59:44]. It was a Kenyan, I can't remember where from, but it was like 2012 or something and it was proper blackcurrant, proper like Ribena Kenya on the point. Then this one's the complete other spectrum. This was one of the competition coffees that I used from Finca Hartmann in Panama, it was phenomenal. It was rockmelon and Cherry Ripe and hibiscus and everything you could think of. It was the most phenomenal coffee I've ever had.

Adam Marley (01:00:18):
I've done for, I can't drink coffee this time of the day, but, man, that sounds amazing. I now feel like coffee, and I usually just don't feel like coffee after like 2:00 PM. I'm going to throw this one as well. I'm fairly certain we've still got the live going, but my screen changed. So, I'm not sure if this is going to be recorded, saved in the IGTV, but we still got a few people here. For them, and hopefully this does get saved. I'm not sure how IGTV, is this still an hour limit, but what do you wish you discovered about the coffee industry or about yourself sooner? Tips for newbies kind of thing.

David Train (01:00:58):
I can say as a barista, you need to remember that you can literally change someone's life, as cliche as it sounds when making them a cup of coffee, because whenever they come into a cafe, it could be the one place in their day where they get to escape a job that they hate or whatever things might be going on in their life. This small interaction that they have with someone for 10 minutes where they get a cup of coffee and just a simple, hey, good day, how you going, John, whatever, here's your latte. See you later. That can really make a difference in someone.

David Train (01:01:32):
Then also, if you're wanting to be on that professional side, is that there's a huge supply chain within coffee, and that there are so many different aspects within our industry that you can maybe focus your energy on. So you don't have to be a roaster or an importer or a cafe owner. You can be a machine tech or you can work in marketing. There's a whole thing within our industry that you can do. But every part along the chain has its value point.

David Train (01:02:03):
So, if you're wanting to make this a profession, find whatever it is that you're passionate about. For me, it was people and coffee. That's why being an importer, I get to do both. I get to meet people and I get to do it over coffee, with coffee and hopefully they enjoy it. Then we can go back the next year, and buy that again and again, and we want to continue to do that. We want to buy the same coffees every year from the same people because that's sustainable business model. Yeah, that's sort of my personal output or input I should say, sorry, on coffee.

Adam Marley (01:02:41):
Yeah. Thank you. No, I love that. I particularly like the barista making someone's day because I was a barista as well. I think a lot of baristas don't realize how much of an impact they have on someone's morning. And not just with the quality of the coffee, but exactly, with the interaction. That's why baristas go to so much effort to remember people's names. Customers like, "How do you remember everyone's names?" It's like, "We try, we try really hard because it makes you happy."

David Train (01:03:04):
Yeah, no, it does. Customer services is, for better or worse, I'd rather go to a cafe that has phenomenal customer service and good coffee than someone that has crap customer and amazing coffee.

Adam Marley (01:03:23):
Yeah, ditto. 100%.

David Train (01:03:26):
You can go to any cafe and something can be wrong. Machine goes down, grinder doesn't work, barista's first day, whatever. But as long as the customer service was fantastic, I'll go back. That's where that aspect of, it can... I've seen people come into cafes and maybe are going through something quite personal. You chat with them for a few minutes and they leave and they're...

Adam Marley (01:03:53):
A little bit better.

David Train (01:03:53):
... in a slightly better mood than what they were when they walked in.

Adam Marley (01:03:58):
Yeah, and humans generally pay it forward. You have an interaction with someone who put you in a better mood, even if you don't really intend to, you're probably going to put other people in a better mood interacting with you because now you're not being a grumpy sod.

David Train (01:04:12):
Happiness is contagious.

Adam Marley (01:04:14):
Happiness is contagious, absolutely. Unfortunately, so are other things. I feel we're talking about cafes again and I feel for them at the moment, but that's not what this Q&A is about. So, I don't know if much of this was recorded in the very end there, but I'm glad I heard it and the few of us that are still here, you got a nice little tidbit there, little pearl of wisdom that others didn't. They're going to get to the end of that video, if it stopped recording, seriously, they're going to get to the end of the video. Because I think it stopped right as you were about to describe your most memorable espresso, double espresso, and you were like, "And..." then it cut. Or this is all going to be record and they're going to watch this bit and be like, Adam really doesn't understand technology very well.

David Train (01:04:57):
Hey, I've got no idea if it's recording or not. I know that there's a few people still here.

Adam Marley (01:05:06):
Yeah. So, I'm not sure, my screen changed. I'll save the bit, if not all of it then the bit from before. On a personal note, thanks again, Dave. I look forward to next time we can catch up with a beer, and just chat and not be so professional.

David Train (01:05:20):
Yeah, me too, mate. And to everyone else out there, just go to your local cafe and don't be afraid to pay more for your cup of coffee.

Adam Marley (01:05:34):
Yeah. If they're the ones putting the effort in. Don't pay more everywhere, vote with your wallet.

David Train (01:05:38):
There are certain places that you should.

Adam Marley (01:05:43):
Yeah, pay more, don't pay [inaudible 01:05:44], they don't need your money. They're fine. Thank you everyone for joining and for the questions. We'll see you on the next live Q&A, we might even do another one with Dave in the future. He had some really great insight. So thanks everyone, and enjoy the weekend.

David Train (01:06:02):
Yeah, you too. I'll talk to you soon. Bye.

Adam Marley (01:06:13):
Bye. How do I turn this off? Do they see this?